I think it’s Fiddle - it says it right up top! 
https://cannerycoders.com/docs/fiddle/index.html
Apparently it’s a visual coding environment for ChucK where you can stitch together things like in Pd but then write new blocks in ChucK.
Yeah, that sounds pretty damn cool.
How’re things going with ChucK? Did you dive into it at all?
ChucK’s on my ‘lets poke at it a bit’ roadmap, but pretty far down. I’m still picking away at that Max patch for sample/buffer mangling and going to really spend some time in SC after that. I’ve been waylaid by a slew of end-of-year projects at work and a cascade of home repairs (heat went out just as it got cold, of course!) so I’ve spent more time thinking about the problem than actually getting to work on it.
What’s been interesting is the total spaghetti mess in Max to recreate your couple lines of code in SonicPi. It’s not really a knock on Max - liveloop and sample in SP have a ton of built in functionality behind the scenes that I’m having to stitch together from basic functions in Max.
A couple of cool things that’s done is one, exposed a bunch of basic variables like start and end/loop points, tempo, offsets and other things that since they’re part of the building process can be manipulated, either through user input (ie tied to a knob) or automated/randomized in interesting ways.
The other maybe bigger thing is that I’m just thinking about things differently. Max and Pd have so many different ways to do the same thing (create tempo, play a sample, generate a random number, etc) that just implementing a process brings up ideas about 'well if I use this function I can also do this thing, but then I have to change this stuff but it lets me use this other function…" which is really neat as long as you can keep the scope creep down. I guess it’s similar to having different hardware or VSTs; one isn’t necessarily better than another but they’re different enough that it makes you approach things differently.
One very cool example is Max/Pd has the idea of using phasors for tempo. You have a basic ramp from 0 to 1 that repeats, and then you trigger events at certain points, like when then phasor resets or when it crosses the half-way point, etc. You can also use built-in subdivisions to generate secondary “pulses” so you don’t have to do any math:
Anyway, hacking away as I have time. The holidays will either be a bunch of free time or none at all, so no telling what I’ll get done.
I have nothing to add.
Just want to say this thread is a bunch of fuck yeah
In other words the awesomest thread on idmf.
Dealing with the same here - I swear, that type of shit always has to happen at the worst possible time 
I sort of abandoned it for a little while, came back to it today and I’m struggling to find a workflow. I love the ease of sending a whole array of oscillators through a whole array of filters and effects with very minimial effort, but I feel like some parts of the puzzle are missing. For one thing, the built-in FX aren’t nearly as robust as something like Pedalboard (Spotify’s Python FX library), so things like flangers and phasers are missing from the start. Of course, they’ve got inbuilt FFT / IFFT, so making your own is definitely possible, but it doesn’t feel like you can start from the top with all of the objects on hand before jumping into the deep end. Getting it into the DAW with VAC and trying to avoid clicks and pops also seems to be an issue.
I really wish there were an environment like this with more of the FX on board, easy DAW connectivity and things like that. I’m probably describing Max again, but maybe this weird little Fiddle thing could be a decent middleman, especially if they have at least a few more effects to pull from and a way to continue writing ChucK scripts. Time to go from one manual to the other 
This still sounds like such a dream machine; being able to mix and match like that seems like the best of both worlds, even if it’s sometimes overwhelming. Part of me just wants to see how far I can go with the demo, because at least the initial patches are usually nothing worth saving anyway. If I found a way to at least export from there (my guess is that it’s not limited in that way, but I don’t know yet) then maybe it would give me just enough incentive to start patching and coding with it.
I think you’re well on your way to prototyping something even better than what Sonic Pi has to offer; as much as I love SP and Orca, the lack of depth and real control under the hood is pretty much what leads us elsewhere, I think. Even ChucK just feels like more of the same (admittedly with some real DSP interspersed for a change) but this just makes me want to get into Max even more. Every road leads back to it so far, so I really might try seeing what that demo has to offer.
I can’t wait to see how far you get with this!
You could get in on this too, if you ever want to!
I’m always down for writing a simple ‘starter’ script for anyone who wants a sort of springboard to play with who might not be familiar with things like Orca, Sonic Pi, and the like. I imagine it would still be fun to run something, change some numbers, sample it, etc
On second thought, I just discovered the Pure Data ‘clone’ object which might actually bridge the gap. I didn’t even know you could reuse and iterate over subpatches until now, so I might have to try that out before succumbing to paidware and demo limitations. But it’s definitely the next stop if all else fails
I also managed to find this, which, if it works, is a serious win for continuing the FOSS journey
I do wonder how changing hexadecimal values and databending can add to creating scripts that make glitchy sounds…
If things were different, I would probably be contributing to this thread. But life stuff…so…
Anyways keep at it.
Your hard work and efforts will yield results and open doors.
Who knows…maybe you’ll design your own daw one day or something.
I agree, that QoL is huge. I don’t mind a little friction with this stuff but having to think about how to get sound into a DAW and wondering if it’ll break and not being able to load VSTs is a bummer. I’m not above rolling my own effect (both Max and Pd have built in delay objects so phase effects like flangers are dead easy) but I’ve got a whole suite of awesome plugins (lookin’ at you, Kilohearts) that I like and am used to and not having access to would kinda suck. Having to stop what you’re doing and go “well, I guess I’ll make a flanger” feels like a disruptive side quest sometimes. Like I know in theory how a shimmer reverb works but I doubt I can whip up something off the cuff as good as Valhalla Shimmer or Eventide Black Hole, and I shouldn’t have to when they’re already installed on my machine.
I thought about that specifically for your situation. Max is fucking baller in that department - you can select stuff in your patch and ctrl-c it. It then pastes like this:
{
“boxes” : [ {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “number”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1135.947748303413391, 577.124201238155365, 50.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-118”,
“numoutlets” : 2,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “”, “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “number”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1011.111143052577972, 520.915049135684967, 50.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-117”,
“numoutlets” : 2,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “”, “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “number”,
“patching_rect” : [ 924.836630523204803, 596.732044994831085, 50.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-116”,
“numoutlets” : 2,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “”, “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “button”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1092.810492038726807, 472.549034535884857, 24.0, 24.0 ],
“id” : “obj-113”,
“numoutlets” : 1,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “number”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1084.920000000000073, 520.915049135684967, 50.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-111”,
“numoutlets” : 2,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “”, “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “button”,
“patching_rect” : [ 969.281076371669769, 449.019622027873993, 24.0, 24.0 ],
“id” : “obj-109”,
“numoutlets” : 1,
“parameter_enable” : 0,
“outlettype” : [ “bang” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “newobj”,
“text” : “sig~”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1025.490000000000009, 571.240000000000009, 31.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-104”,
“numoutlets” : 1,
“outlettype” : [ “signal” ],
“numinlets” : 1
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “message”,
“text” : “startloop”,
“patching_rect” : [ 962.091533660888672, 563.398710608482361, 55.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-103”,
“numoutlets” : 1,
“outlettype” : [ “” ],
“numinlets” : 2
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “live.gain~”,
“varname” : “live.gain~[3]”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1025.490228474140167, 688.88891065120697, 136.0, 47.0 ],
“id” : “obj-99”,
“numoutlets” : 5,
“parameter_enable” : 1,
“outlettype” : [ “signal”, “signal”, “”, “float”, “list” ],
“lastchannelcount” : 0,
“orientation” : 1,
“numinlets” : 2,
“saved_attribute_attributes” : {
“valueof” : {
“parameter_longname” : “live.gain~[4]”,
“parameter_mmax” : 6.0,
“parameter_mmin” : -70.0,
“parameter_modmode” : 3,
“parameter_shortname” : “live.gain~”,
“parameter_type” : 0,
“parameter_unitstyle” : 4
}
}
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “ezdac~”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1020.915064930915833, 762.091527342796326, 45.0, 45.0 ],
“id” : “obj-100”,
“numoutlets” : 0,
“numinlets” : 2
}
}
, {
“box” : {
“maxclass” : “newobj”,
“text” : “groove~ testsample”,
“patching_rect” : [ 1020.919999999999959, 618.299999999999955, 114.0, 22.0 ],
“id” : “obj-98”,
“numoutlets” : 2,
“outlettype” : [ “signal”, “signal” ],
“numinlets” : 3
}
}
],
“lines” : [ {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-116”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-98”, 1 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-109”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-118”, 0 ],
“order” : 0
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-118”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-98”, 2 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-117”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-104”, 0 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-109”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-117”, 0 ],
“order” : 1
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-111”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-104”, 0 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-109”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-116”, 0 ],
“order” : 3
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-113”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-111”, 0 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-109”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-103”, 0 ],
“order” : 2
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-104”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-98”, 0 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-103”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-98”, 0 ]
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-98”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-99”, 1 ],
“order” : 0
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-98”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-99”, 0 ],
“order” : 1
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-99”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-100”, 0 ],
“order” : 1
}
}
, {
“patchline” : {
“source” : [ “obj-99”, 0 ],
“destination” : [ “obj-100”, 1 ],
“order” : 0
}
}
],
“appversion” : {
“major” : 9,
“minor” : 0,
“revision” : 7,
“architecture” : “x64”,
“modernui” : 1
}
,
“classnamespace” : “box”
}
There’s also an option for “Copy Compressed” that gives you this:
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uzX+jU9l7djHB.QU21ZSrUx5s1NWssEn6uCmv+i8IeLG
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
So you select either of those, copy and paste directly into the Max patch window and it shows up. What I don’t know is whether any of that is disabled in the post-30 day demo; my guess is it still works. What I’m imagining is once saving is disabled, you live with Notepad++ or similar open in tandem and just copy everything into it to save. Definitely more of a hassle than ctrl-S but likely gets around the save limitation until you decide whether you want it long-term or can afford a copy.
They also offer a student discount, which I think just requires an .edu email, so if you know anyone that might be an option. Also looks like they occasionally run sales (maybe Black Friday?) that gets the price about the same as the edu discount, around $250. Still a lot of doss but a decent savings over the regular cost.
Is this your card?
I’m actually blown away by this, and I’m trying to figure out why they even allow it. Theoretically I could pretty much just save my patches elsewhere and keep using the demo? I’m wondering how far down the nesting goes, for example, into codeboxes or gen~, but holy shit.
I noticed only the compressed version pasted, but still, if that’s an option at all, this is brand new to me 
Although on second thought, it looks like they might’ve greyed that option out on the demo, so maybe I can only paste things that other people have made. This seems to coincide with their ability to open projects, but not save them
Yeah, that’s it. It was just the smallest snippet in the test patch I had up at the time (not actually anything useful). People use this all the time on the Max forums, reddit and their Discord to swap patches and demo things for troubleshooting.
Try this one, it’s got a subpatch called testsubpatch to the right. You should be able to double click on it and open the subpatch in another window.
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
No idea about Compressed, but I’m not surprised they’d disable it in the demo. Curious if the raw copy works. I’m guessing you have the demo, so try just selecting a bunch of stuff and copy/pasting to a notepad. Then close and reopen Max, empty patch and paste it back in.
EDIT: Make sure you have the patch unlocked (little lock icon in the bottom left) and select stuff (ie can move it around) and see if Copy Compressed is available.
Yep, everything you mentioned works. This is absolutely insane.
Is this just one of those soft, ‘wink, wink’ moments where the demo is actually entirely usable long before you cough up the cash? I think they genuinely want people to get into the ecosystem long before taking the plunge and if that’s the case, this might seriously work.
The real icing would be if the M4L demo did the same. I know they have a pretty hard cap on gen~ objects in that version, but as mentioned before, I’d be more willing to start with high-level shit long before getting into any of that, so that’s not an issue either. This is so insane.
Copy compressed is still greyed out, which doesn’t really make any sense in this context, but I definitely don’t mind saving the long form version into text files. It’s really not all that much more effort, which is confusing, but also freeing. I’m really surprised they allow people to do this at all!
Just so I’m clear, you’re running a demo that is past the 30-day mark? I ask because during the initial 30 (like if you just installed and registered for the demo) everything works, including saving.
Sounds like Compressed is a full feature, and I’m not surprised as it really does skip the whole buying thing.
I’m no Cycling spokesman but I’d guess there’s several motivations here - first is that having to copy/paste out a huge block of text for everything (which get bigger and bigger as your patch grows - that thing I sent is already massive and is definitely a tiny Max patch) so there’s a lot of overhead there and if you want to go through the trouble, fine, but it’s a good motivation to buy the product without cutting people off at the knees.
It’s also super useful for troubleshooting, which applies to people in their first 30 days moreso than people that have uesd it longer, so keeping that functionality in lets people really get their feet under them and questions answered during the initial break-in period.
And last, yeah, they just want people in the ecosystem. They’re fans of artists, they want people using their software, they’re not horrible corporate ogres, and I think all that in conjunction with the sort of people that gravitate towards something like Max ends up with a situation that is basically “the fact that I don’t HAVE to pay you for this awesome thing makes me want to pay you for the awesome thing”. It just solidifies the good will in the best of ways.
I don’t know specifically what you’re wanting to test, but Live’s LFO is a M4L device. Find that, drag it as an effect, right-click on the top bar and select Edit in Max
You can also add a M4L device like Max for Live > Max Audio Effect for a blank effect and do the same process (Edit in Max).
All that seems to have the copy and copy compressed options.
Yeah, I never registered it and it has the nag tab up top still. If I’m correct, I can use it this way indefinitely and eventually start the 30 day trial if I want to export some RNBO project or something weird, because I think everything is unlocked at that point. If I really have some motivation to use the full version later for the 30 days, I might have a whole shitload of stuff to rapid-fire export so that could actually be pretty cool if / when the time comes.
I’m about to test out the M4L version, but this is going to be one hell of an educational suite as it is, even as a demo. I had done a bit of stuff with PDLua, and even dug into the clone object with subpatching and ultimately realized that no matter what you do, rapid iteration (without some degree of doing everything by hand) is still a technical no. On the flip side, I already got objects to spawn in Max via JS, and I bet wiring them together and actually giving them whatever arguments you want is just as easy or doable in some fashion.
It’s funny, but even on a surface level it blows everything else out of the water. I can’t imagine what it’s like when you get really acquainted with it.
I guess since you have Max installed, I’ll mention that part of the second patch I sent is a “playhead” for the sampler thingy if you want to play around with it. Use is pretty simple - you drag a sound file in where it says “drop sample here”, hit the bang above info twice (to get and pass the ms length of the sample), and then hit the X by tempo (also need to make sure the DAC at the bottom is on/lit and the gain is turned up).
Relevant things to mess with would be the chunk size up by info - that’s the base length of the playback in ms, of course play with the tempo itself as well as the subdivs. Timestretch is also a lot of fun - turned off it’ll pitch slow samples way down, turned on you can get that good resample glitchy sound and can further modify things with pitchshift and mode for lots of fun.
As a ‘cheat’ around reading a bunch of files in like you were doing in Pi, I really imagined this with longer samples where the playheads just pick random starting points in a long track - I figured since your 5 sec chop up was arbitrary, using something akin to the full, uncut file and then picking random points would be about the same. I’ve been using ripped movie audio and it’s been working out well as a test except when it grabs a bunch of silence lol.
Also and not really related, you were talking about iteration and reusable assets - check out snippets, the little paperclip on the left side. Those are reusable chunks you can save and drag into a patch. So if you have a common thing like transport or audio out or even a delay unit you can save it in there and just drag it into a new patch when you need it. I don’t know if that’s what you were talking about but I’ve found it pretty handy.
I’ll have to try your patch again - Max just went through a really crazy spell of crashing and not even letting me use codeboxes properly for a little while, but after a reboot and no copy / pasting (yet!) it seems oddly stable. Also the codebox right-click menu was so translucent that I couldn’t see or use it initially (which I thought was some kind of limitation as well), but now that functionality has returned which is super nice.
All I ever really wanted to do (at least for starters) in PD is stuff like this, throwing a ton of oscillators, FX and wiring around like a mongoloid, and then see what else happens from there. I’m sure (or, I hope) there are some methods for clearing and stuff like that, so that patches can be constructed and deconstructed on the fly. The closest I ever got to functionality like this was with Bespoke, but their system is terribly unoptimized, and as usual, there really aren’t a whole lot of high-level effects around.
Also, if you can even spawn reusable assets like this, that’s going to completely blow my mind, too. I see there are Ableton effects in here, the whole BEAP catalog (similar to Max For Cats’ OSCiLLOT, if I recall) and obviously everything both Max/MSP and gen~ have to offer. I’m crossing my fingers about that onslaught of crashes being a fluke because this is fucking awesome.
I think the part I hated the most (so far) about PD and Reaktor was having to wire shit up constatnly. Maybe my workflow is god-awful (very likely), but having a ‘connect’ mechanism is a real godsend.
Fuck, another crash. I knew this was too good to be true
V8 Codebox gets really angry when I have the reference open, or something. Flangers also feel like they’re going to take down my entire system (even singular uses, without the crazy stuff). I don’t know if this is just me, but the stability is always what seems to get me with Max. I wish I could send error reports or at least recover my work, but these crashes just keep on coming 
Last ditch attempt might actually be Supercollider after all, since it appears as though it’s meant for tasks like this. The syntax kind of scares me a little, but I think it’s the one thing that makes the most sense for a workflow like this. There might even be a decent amount of externals out there, and with VST support, I might have to seriously try to understand it. Gulp
I don’t think I’ve ever had Max crash (I’m sure I have but it’s uncommon enough that I don’t remember it). I obviously can’t rule out things external to Max (the PC itself, audio hardware), but in the above example my guess is your problem is the 25 DACs. Those aren’t instances of the same DAC, they’re independent connections directly to hardware. What you have in that picture is basically 25 (very lightweight) DAWs all trying to write directly to your audio driver at the same time. I couldn’t say without looking at a crash report but my guess is you’re hitting resource exhaustion, hardware interrupts or instruction cache issues on the CPU with that many DACs.
I just tried your patch above with 25 rect~ connected to a single DAC and it worked fine. Again, not a great test since we’re ignoring all the differences between our setups but Max seemed not at all bothered to spit out 25 oscillator signals. Might be worth giving that a go and seeing if you have different results.
This is a good catch; it had crashed a few times before without any dac~ objects involved, but I definitely do need to treat some of them less like modules and more like potential resource hogs / systems, especially with a lot of them going at once.
I also figured out that safeguarding codeboxes with a bang function is a necessity, because otherwise they’ll just evaluate whenever the hell they feel like it (seemingly when switching from locked to unlocked modes, even). Maybe with those two strategies combined I’ll figure out how to get things to stop crashing, but SC is still on a very close backburner.
I did install the ChucK evaluator external pretty much immediately (not that I know how to use it in the context of Max just yet), and I’m hoping I didn’t introduce potential bugs with such modification from the very beginning. I’m still enjoying this weird exploratory process so far, though, but obviously more conventional tools become more available with deeper knowledge. The worst part is just not really knowing any of the lower-level DSP concepts and not being able to take advantage of the millions of “hey, do it yourself” frameworks everywhere. Otherwise I’d probably just use Beads or Minim for Processing .
The robust documentation of Max is awesome, though. Sometimes it’s hard to find a few things, but usually that’s just a case of me asking the wrong questions because they’ve since created a new way of doing things. There are almost too many ways to get shit done here, but it’s obviously where I want to start.
Not being able to save isn’t a huge loss at first, either; for any newcomers, definitely use the demo. Most of the crashes that I’m experiencing are likely my fault, so I’m not in any rush to save a doomed patch anyway. It’ll be a long time before I want to keep something I’ve made, and not to sound like Mr. Anti-Piracy, but this really seems to give you access to everything you’d ever need. Blows Pure Data out of the water with the modern scripting tools, too.
Shit crashed again with 50 oscillators, 50 VCAs and a DAC. Sounded pretty great as a basis for starting a cool sound design project, but even though the code evaluated fine, something about manually deleting 50 oscillators and banging again for the next 50 just causes the program to freak the fuck out, apparently. SC might be more up for the task, but the visual component was really tempting. Especially for the GLSL tools and all sorts of other great stuff.
I’m almost wondering if there’s a memory / object cleanup method I should be calling instead; something that instructs Max to let those ones go, because it seems like it’s acting like the resources are snowballing or something weird.
That’s wild. Do you have a copy of the patch or could you recreate it? I’d be interested to see if I can get it to run, just to rule out that it’s some innate instability or limitation of Max and/or the demo (ie it’s a ‘you’ problem and not a max problem )
Also, what version of Max and did you get a crash report of any kind? It’s apparently located at C:\Users[yourusername]\AppData\Roaming\Cycling ’74\Logs per https://support.cycling74.com/hc/en-us/articles/43551688934419-Max-crashed-Where-can-I-find-the-crash-report
Hold up. Why are you recreating the oscillators? Did you do that while it was locked/running? I could see that definitely causing problems.
