AI in Music

thats also valid. i suppose i would rather prefer hearing “i use AI to fix up certain things to save time/money” rather than “i use AI to create entire pieces and aspects of my project because its easy”. I would rather do things the “archaic way” (as im sure it will be known in the future) because im very passionate about what i pour my time and effort into. like with any artist i’m a perfectionist, and jank AI slop is the farthest from my goal.

yeah I agree. I dislike AI as much as the next guy but people on the internet love spamming hyperbole as fact. its just irritating for those who actually use their brain. even though it looks kind of jank i still like it as an album cover. but the off center pupil in the eye is a bit of a facepalm moment.

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Haven’t seen that cover so I guess that’s at least something to be happy about today :grin:, but I have been thinking if the fact that I’m not checking out much indie music anymore is related to having seen so many AI covers and just subconsciously expecting lots of AI “influences” in general. It definitely might be more of a time limitation issue (haven’t been checking out much new music in general), but the thought has come up…

edit: there goes my grain of happiness for today, I just had to check it out.. but looks kinda funny so that’s alright…

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The study being examined in this article has received a fair bit of coverage, and I’m not entirely surprised to hear it.

Not related to music at all, but I just finished an accounting ethics course for my masters where we had to use an LLM (our choice, could do many, one, compare, or just choose a best, etc) to answer questions about the cases and then critically evaluate the AIs answers. What they got right, wrong, logical inconsistencies, etc. It was a fun and enlightening experience that really let me stretch my own critical thinking muscles. The short version was there was literally one answer all semester that I feel the AI got right, and that was only because it was shortened from a longer answer where I explicitly asked the AI to shorten its response and limit it to points X Y and Z where it was correct.

Other than that, there was really some shockingly bad answers, and a lot of answers that I would give a B or a C if I were grading them. Like, this one case we had to read a company’s financial statements and evaluate if everything was above board. In the case in front of us, it was, though there were things to keep in mind and be concerned about as you read it. The AI locked into the second sentence of the case “Company X has had issues with the SEC regarding its reporting in the past” and said if they were wrong before they are wrong now and everyone should be in jail. That completely misses the reality of the situation (fines and punishments for past offenses were all dealt with), and does not give the current financial data the proper analysis.

In another case, I got decent answers back, but I was using google Gemini and that has a function where it will let you look at what sources it used to arrive at its answers. I asked a very specific question about the AICPA code of ethics and how it applies in this case. So you’d think the AI would look at the AICPA website, where they provide this information and keep it up to date, publicly available, for free - to help formulate its answer. No, it went to a flashcard study site where all the content is user generated by people studying for the CPA exam. So, not created by licensed CPAs, and not vetted by the AICPA. Somehow, it got correct answers, but that is a hugely risky source to trust for answering these kinds of questions with profound legal, professional, and societal (in some cases) ramifications.

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For myself, I still generate AI track art on occasion. I think its fair to say that it reflects I think less of my art these days. I just don’t want to put my songs out with a blank square. I have tried to get better at things like GIMP and Illustrator, but tbh it was a lot of work that took me away from making music.

And making music is how I want to spend my time - not doing promo and art. I know that means my art gets less publicity, and maybe I deserve less because I don’t want to put in the work to really hone in on a visual style to match my audio style. I probably deserve less exposure because I don’t want to put the work into figuring out advertising, sending my work out to blogs, labels, and playlists. But, the average amount of time I sit on a finished song before putting enough of the surrounding pieces together to release it is 18 months now. As in, I finish a track, master it, listen to it myself over and over for 18 months (in some cases 2-3 YEARS) saying “I love this, don’t want to change a thing”, and I don’t put it out because I’m too lazy to give it a name, do some art, and render a video. If AI shortens that span up then I’m happy.

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perfect, you don’t have to. i’ve heard people have the same issue, and they don’t want to hire an artist, which is fine. photoshop can be tedious (trust me i know), and some don’t have a ton of time to mess around in art programs.

which is why i ask, why not just take a photo, or find one? it allows creativity and freedom and doesn’t require as much tedious skill as something like art does. maybe i’m missing the point but photography is never ever brought up when it comes to alternatives to ai art. its either visual art or ai. if you don’t have a cell phone, there’s places to get a cheap camera. you just have to know what looks good enough to take a picture.

me, personally, i’ll pour however much time i need to do with art (and eventually when i figure out promotion) if it means i’ll be proud of it by the time it’s over. sometimes, it’ll sound like shit and there’s little i can do about it. maybe if i have a good photo lying around that suits the music i might use it.

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That’s a really fair point. I do some lightweight photography here and there, I just never considered adding it to my music.

The other route I’ve gone in the past is royalty free art. That is, from my perspective, not much better than AI generated art. Even if real people are on the other side of it (and I’m not sure that’s a given anymore), I am using more or less the same process of search/prompt for something and just picking an output I like.

Hell, maybe the most artistically honest thing I could do is just put out blank squares. I know I’m incapable of conveying what I want to visually, so I’d really rather focus on my music.

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That reminds me a bit of the debate on using samples and the meme about the musician who went from making music to farming because he needed to make the leather for the drums he wanted to sample :grin:

Photos are a nice idea though, haven’t used one for a cover in years. Can be fast and nice to throw a picture into editing software and just put some effects on it.

In any case, I think using AI or just a blank square or whatever is perfectly fine for a cover to upload a track. But if it’s an album you put a lot of time in, why not collab with someone who likes to create visual stuff to make something while listining to it? Might give the cover an interesting different direction… And even if it’s AI generated, it takes a while to select something nice…

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I think some dipshit had an open collab thread on here for a similar purpose. If you can get over his terrible taste and shitty aesthetic

Maybe I’m retarded (no – I definitely am) but I think there’s a lot of value in taking pictures, using those as design fodder and even grabbing stock images for the same purpose. You wouldn’t believe the textures and accidental goodness you can achieve from both if you’re open to doing a little bit of image manipulation - sometimes just a threshold mask or deleting all of the dark pixels below a certain threshold gives you just the overlay you wanted.

I’ll stop there for risk of delving into topics like Filter Forge, PIL or Processing, but it’s worth it for anyone who wants to have some fun doing image manipulation from time to time.

As a sidenote in more normal territory, investing in a low-end Rebel T7 was one of the greatest investments I’ve ever made for artwork, design, marketing, or whatever you want to call that whole cluster of shit. Just snapping some shit RAW gives you an endless palette to play with.

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tl;dr

I don’t want ot use AI for music. I’m being creative because I enjoy creating, and because creating things means something to me, and what I create relates to what it means to me. What AI produces, although I cannot state this objectively, feels to me to be less meaningful, subjectively. Yes, people have been tricked into finding meaning in AI content, sure, but that is the meaning I see it in without knowing where something came from. Knowing where something comes from and who or what made it can completely change its meaning. I’ve found ChatGPT very helpful if I just want a very objective and relatively unbiased perspective on something I’m thinking abut that I’m unsureof, and want to seek further material to learn more, whereby I’ll find a book ro something. ChatGPT is also an excellent thesaurus. I often forget words, but know exactly which word I’m trying to rmemeber, and ChatGPT helps me fid it.


Broader answer

I have more thoughts on this, and as I continued writing, I realised I cannot give an answer that I feel does justice to what I actually think if I only talk about AI in music, as it is inexorably related to a much broad and altogether more serious problem, including as it relates to convenience and technology as solutions to problems, and the notion that more solutions = less problems, when in fact we are often completely unaware of the additional problems created by technological “solutions” until its too late; and we often don’t realise we actually stand to lose what may be less tangible, but infinitely more valuable, when we solve the ‘wrong’ problems and replace the wrong 'struggl’e with convenience;, and in doing this anyway, we replace it with a hollow imitation; a hollow imitation often made so alluring in a tangible way, that it can be difficult to look past the pretty lights and bright colours that so often captivate us, and when we don’t actually realise the value of those intangibles that come from ‘struggle’, or the ‘right’ problems, all we have left are the features of a product that increase the convenience of our lives or feel like they entertain us, and reduce boredom (maybe people are just bored because they’ve already lost many invaluable intangibles we never knew we had to begin with).

AI not going to go anywhere. It will get more advanced, and I do believe we’ll develop AGI one day. I think AI has incredible potential to be either the best thing to ever happen to us, or the worst, depending on how it roots in the human culture, and what we do to decide how that happens exactly; and given the human propensity to use technology as a weapon, it is perhaps more likely to be the worst thing. It also depends very strongly on whether or not it is possible to solve the alignment problem (and even if it can be, that some humans can do it is evidence it can be done, but whichever morals it does align to, if it can, should they be? It also depends very strongly on to what extent superhuman intelligences could actually inflict serious harms on humankind if they were somehow able to attain agency in the world, like some means of replicating itself physically or digitally. The movies go for the most dramatic, but also the most cartoonish outcomes, usually, in both directions, so while they’re entertaiing, they’re not worth looking to for guidance.

I don’t want to end up distancing myself from the craft of art, where my art is always testing the limits of my ability. Struggling through complexity, confusion, inconvenience, and as yet unclosed skill gaps between and ability are more crucial than most people realise. Where we inadvertently end up along the way, getting something other than what was initially planned or intended, has time and again been one of the most fundamental sources of new innovation in art. New technology plays a crucial role in enabling innovations in art, too, I’m not lost on that.

Not all conveniences detract from or jeopardise the fruits of the struggle. Many of them enhance it; and many others still enable some things, at the cost of others. For example, having a shit loads of VSTs and a wide array of muscle memory in terms of how to use them makes you less likely to happen across new and novels approaches to making sounds, but that does help enable a creative struggle to take place at a different level: using your array of VSTs and techniques committed to muscle memory like piano keys, there’s still much new music you can play with the same piano keys.

Not all inconvenience is meaningful, or worth the effort. Dishwashers are brilliant! Struggling through the dishes in the sink is not a typically a worthwhile inconvenience, where struggling through, even though there are easier options, will be rewarding. I like convenience when it doesn’t contribute to unhealthy behaviours and habits, where it actually frees up time for me to focus on and struggle through what are actually worthwhile conveniences

Unnecessary convenience, and convenience taken as a virtue, has in many ways become the bane of human existence, yet we’re so enamoured by the illusion of greater freedom it apparently enables, that there exists more and more a hollow, shallow, ‘easy’ form of what came before, that is just unfulfilling. The network accumulation of conveniences in society and the human culture have left behind voids filled with plastic reproduction of the genuine article that once came before, but because that almost everything has becoming a plastic reproduction, it’s becoming normal to us, and people just can’t tell anymore. They can’t tell anymore, all the while they feel unfulfilled on some level, that there’s something missing, and guess what! There’s exactly the medication for that one, too. All the kids these days are taking it, and they’re all just so damn fulfilled, and they’re less anxious and depressed than they’ve ever been… since like the before the 2000s…

Unnecessary technology, outright malicious technology and media platforms, and the dominant culture of solving problems with technological solutions that lead only to more problems, and the systemic incentive to solve problems only in ways that increase the value of shareholders that also lead only to more problems instead of focusing on reworking the core operating systems of the world can go fuck itself :fu: Sadly, the world is subject the same class of limitation that legacy software and hardware does… it’s a) difficult to rewrite it while it’s still running, it’s vulnerable to exploitation. And when you consider the fact that the legacy core in society that is broken includes us and the people with a vested interest in keeping it broken at the expense of human wellbeing, that makes it all the more a terrible thing.

We’ve been sold the modern culture so completely and fully, most people are oblivious to how deep it actually cuts into the modern human psyche, its roots stretching back thousands of years to the earliest revolutionary technological advancements that started civilisation on the path to where it is today. I think technology has great potential to help us, but we cannot go forward into a radically happier and healthier future, enabled by technology, on a patchwork basis. We must be willing and able to completely deconstruct every thing we’re doing that is hurting us, and as science better understands how to figure that out reliably, that’ll become easier; but stopping and redirecting a civilisation once it’s already running something it believes is harmful to drop (like a Pascal’s Wager), stopping it can only be messy, human ethics is messy…

This is an excellent video that goes into a lot of things my friend and I have thought about over the years as we’ve epxlored the modern problem and sought to understand our situation more.

RIght, I’m out, I’ve been on and off thinking about this all night now, and I haven’t slept in 3 and 3 nights day! :smiley:

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Hey, welcome back @psyber! As is to be expected, even your tl;dr is tl;dr :laughing:
JK, very interesting thoughts as always! Might write some comments when I find some more free time.

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Wonder if i can use ai to generate a breakcore dubstep ep.

A quote from one of my teachers:

“I think that the world will find that an unskilled person using AI is not a substitute for a skilled person, with or without AI. There’s something about learning from mistakes that is superior to simply having access to information.”

This I completely relate to and agree with. AI in the hands of a skilled person in the field that they’re using it for is a powerful tool. Conversely, AI in the hands of an unskilled person cannot call it out when it has said something wrong.

I’m not a coder so to speak but I understand how coding works and built an entire website with code, using predominately ChatGPT, with assistance from Gemini and Github Copilot. If I didn’t understand code language, I would not have been able to pull that off with any decent results.

I have used AI to try and create album covers for the Retrospectives (obviously), and it was never easy. Painfully frustrating to me in fact I wasted so much time banging my head against the proverbial wall to get an output of my intended vision, and it just kept giving me crap that I didn’t ask for. I would say that my prompting skills at that time were pretty minimal. Anyway, I ended up palming the job off to Wayne because I despised it.

Both of these instances were not easy and still involved many laborious weeks of work.

If the label had endless cash, I would employ people to execute my vision. Instead, I have some semi-free AI tools at my disposal. I could use them and actually make something decent using the skills I have or just let it rot because I can’t do everything by myself while maintaining a full-time job and raising a child. AI is useful to a degree and that shouldn’t be understated, but it’s also dumb and needs an informed “driver” if you want great results.

Edit: Also, would I still be running the label without AI assistive tools? Probably not. It’s way too much work for one person. So, it stands to reason that the artistic jobs that have been “lost” due to be use of AI, are not lost at all, cause the demand (at least in my case) wouldn’t have existed in the first place. FYI, Most of the artwork on the label is the artists own artwork. For the Feb compilation I paid someone for their pre-exisiting artwork. So I’m not lost on the whole thing :wink:

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I think this is the core of usefulness to neural networks - doing the shit you need to do but don’t want to or can’t do. Like you (probably) don’t absolutely love websites (even this one) or album covers (even the label’s or your own) the way you love music and making it. They’re means to an end, you like what you get from those things but don’t want to spend your life in deep pursuit of them. So having a useful tool to automate the drudgery that comes with the territory of participating in modern music, yeah, you’d be silly not to leverage it.

I’m certainly happy to have Chat Gippty “summarize my changelogs and github merge in a bullet point list for luddites” when sending a work email because I can’t be bothered to do it. That’s a great time saver where I lose nothing as long as I proof read because it’s a corpo email where there’s zero creativity and the quality bar is so low as to be non-existent.

While I have a lot of complaints about the “AI Revolution”, it’s always nice to hear scenarios where someone leveraged it to actually make their life easier or get something done they wouldn’t have otherwise been able to do.

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Not gonna lie, I was about to write this, if no one else put this… Full AI songs will never be to the level of an artist, mostly due to the fact it tries to be too perfect

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yeah honestly it was really fun to work with you and hold regular conversations with you on it, but that actually was fuckin hard and not how i go about using the AI tools now. it was definitely a learning experience for both of us, and i value it for that even more. one of them I did something like over 2000 renders, haha! I wonder if i’ll get a part of the “formerly this was a rainforest now it is cooked earth” dead zone or a nuclear power plant for server farms named after me someday. retro3 I made a video scroll of the images with the music over it if anyone remembers:

yeah, I’ve learned a lot since this time (a little over a year ago) and I still appreciate the task because it set me off on a little of different paths and ideas.

I use AI to organize and help plan out a lot of my projects because my journaling and idea forming are devoid of structure and task flow. I am chaotic. my robots have really helped my ADHD mothafuckin ass organize my systems. and yeah, write social media prompts, generate hashtags, SEO positive descriptions, code for my website.

it’s never perfect and never will be. it’s a tool, not a servant. and it’s wrong/off like 65% of the time. i have had to learn how to use the tool and frankly it’s made my life a bit easier especially when it comes how learning how to do new things that otherwise I would have to sift through google searched and forums and library books to figure out. major time saver.

I think AI as a tool towards productivity is great, I find it’s collection process of information to make me learning or planning something more effective, especially since you can update if a certain approach didnt work.