They said something about making the Renoise installer as small as humanly possible, but couldn’t tell me what factors exactly increased the size, especially for people like me who were using zero outside samples. It felt like an impossible goal so I just gave up on it, although it would’ve been pretty cool otherwise
Next up, we’ve got cost.
RIght off the bat, Ableton costs a shit ton more that FL, but considering it’s more the “MacBook premium app” I don’t mind THAT MUCH. Ableton just FEELS a lot nicer to use for a actually making a track in. FL is really a lot easier to quickly slap your ideas into (imo) but it doesn’t feel like a “proper” app. The price also feels the same.
Windows and FL have always felt like “entry level” or “baby” software to me - there’s something about MacOS and Ableton that just feels proper. It’s cleaner, designed like an app and not a toy. I think that the price somewhat (maybe the tiniest smidge) justifies that, honestly. Of course, the amount of app you get for your money is also down to ALL of the other things I’m talking about in this thread, so it really is down to a lot of factors.
One thing I’ll say about both is that they’re stupidly overpriced for the entry-level versions. FL Fruity and Signature aren’t worth it, and nor is Ableton Intro and/or Standard. I think that Ableton’s overall price is too expensive. As a software company, you don’t have to worry about cost of sales, so a grand is kinda stupid. The student discount of half price is what it should be at base, and even then - you buy a powerful computer to run the program, maybe get some decent headphones and an interface and… Oops! You’re broke.
Maybe you could just look into an ‘intro’ or ‘lite’ tier?
I sort of think that’s what these are for, lately. I know most DAWs feel like a subscription model of sorts (they’re not too far off) but at least you’re usually paying for great updates and you can save quite a lot by going without a few ‘top-tier’ devices or functions, or just adding in a few free / cheap VST options to make up the difference.
If I were strapped for cash though (and I usually am as well), I also wouldn’t be using an apple product. I’d put some of that money toward better DAW features.
I’m not sure what’s in Live’s bottom tier, but I could probably make a good case for using it 
2 Likes
I found an exhaustive list for the $99 version. Looks pretty suite to me:
16 audio and MIDI tracks
16 scenes
2 send and return tracks
16 mono audio input channels
16 mono audio output channels
Unique Session View
Nondestructive editing with unlimited undo
Multitrack recording up to 32-bit/192 kHz
Powerful MIDI sequencing of software and hardware instruments
Advanced warping and real-time time-stretching
Unlimited Instruments, Audio effects and MIDI effects per project
Group tracks
VST2, VST3 and Audio Unit v2 and v3 support
Time signature changes
Comping
Multiple automation lanes
MIDI Polyphonic Expression
Track Freeze
Capture MIDI
Tempo Following
Note Chance
Note Compatibility
Complex warp modes
Note and Velocity Chance
Groove Pool and extract groove
Video import/export
Updated for Live 12
Live Core Library
New in Live 12
Tuning Systems
Keys and Scales
Screen Reader Support
Sound Similarity / Browsing
User Tagging
Custom Browser Labels
Browsing History
Factory tags
There’s also the comparison of what you get at different versions/price points, ie functionality you’re losing by saving money:
Though does that just lead to FOMO? “I’m missing out on x,y and z which my dopamine receptors now think I need even though I didn’t think I needed it before” lol
The core functionality of Lite is pretty limiting - 16 tracks in 2025? Come on, that’s just crippling to make you buy up. But it’s not the end of the world; a lot of folks never have that many tracks anyway and you can just bounce down like a responsible producer if you run into the limit. I’d be a bit bummed about only two Sends, but only because I use outboard gear. I’m guessing it wouldn’t be a problem for a lot of people and there are workarounds.
Lite and standard loses almost all of the interesting and powerful native synths (Sampler, Analog, Operator, etc), along with a bunch of sample/instrument packs.
There’s a couple of effects missing from Lite that I use all the time, namely EQ-8, Glue Compressor and Multi-band compressor. Standard loses the Convo Reverb and Spectral stuff which I like and use occasionally, but a lot of people probably wouldn’t miss.
Lite is weirdly almost completely devoid of MIDI Tools but has all the MIDI effects. Okay, Ableton. To be fair, unless you’re some black note diva that just gets off on procedurally fucking around with MIDI, it’s whatever. They’re all niche, reproducible in other ways and no great loss imo.
And of course Suite gets you M4L, which is both huge and a non-issue depending on if you have a use case for it and/or know how to use it. I’d say it’s not worth $350/$650 US until you’re absolutely sure you want it, everything else being equal.
So yeah, you lose a ton dropping down to Standard or Lite. But you don’t lose much of anything that can’t be replaced by a third-party plugin that’s free and/or better. Sample packs abound on the internet. Vital is free and can replace what you lose in the synth category, and there are much better featured effects out there for cheap/free. Or take the difference in what you’d spend and get into Phase Plant or Pigments and have a way better virtual synth environment and sound design than anything you’ll get out of Live. Same with stuff like Valhalla and other cheap-but-high-quality effects that get you the same or more than what Live offers.
2 Likes
Yes! But I think that might give a lot of people something to work toward. Honestly, using a crippled DAW (I’m still on some low FL Sudio tier) isn’t nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to think. Even with Live lite, I could personally make all of my songs with that; I’d just have to be a little less-lazy about how I lay things out. Half the time, I just have some bloated group for the intro, bridge, or outro that could easily be tetris-consolidated if need be.
(Not to mention you can skirt a lot of this by just flattening multiple layers together. It forces some commitment, but that can sometimes be rewarding)
Plus, anyone who’s gotten some free Plugin Boutique givaways throughout the years probably already has a lot more on hand than they realize to fill the gap. Hell, I might even be able to get in on Live again with this, as much as I think I don’t like it
1 Like
For sure. A lot of it is learning to work around inherent limitations. Is there some friction to 16 tracks? Sure, sometimes, for some people, but it’s not like someone showed up and formatted your drive. It’s just something to get creative around.
If I was truly broke, Reaper + Vital + Cardinal + pd/plugdata + whatever free plugs I could pull from KVR and the rest of the internet and I could have like 90% of what I have now for absolutely 100% free. My workflow would have to change significantly but I’m entirely convinced I could make awesome, compelling audio with just that setup with no money invested. Hell, if the only thing I was allowed to use was Audacity, I could still make awesome music because it’s about 1000x more powerful than the 4-track tape recorder I started on in the 80s. As the saying goes, it’s a poor craftsman who blames their tools.
1 Like
Live 12 Suite is the beezness yo. You can start with Lite and upgrade for a discount later on too. Plus anyone in school, I think there’s an education discount as well. there used to be…
also 16 tracks is not enough, but yes limitations do lead to creative ways of … creating.
1 Like
Exactly what I didn’t want to do
Too little shit, and it’s really not worth it in my opinion. I’d rather save up the 500 bucks and just buy suite with a student discount.
mmm
I already struggle enough coming up with efficient ways of doing stuff, I really don’t need any more limitations
Another thing, if I just buy live 12 suite now, then I won’t have to fuck around upgrading it in the future, I’ll just be ready. I like having all the things. Do I use absolutely everything in one track? No, but I do mix and match all the time. I’ll also be using 12 suite in uni, so it’ll be nice to have a personal copy, too.
If they offered just a sliver of max for $99, that would be really hard to refuse.
I’m actually surprised they don’t seem to restrict warp modes and all of that often-overlooked stuff you can’t easily get elsewhere. Zplane definitely makes their own shit, but the baked-in versions of their algos are almost always on DAW tier 1 which is absolutely nuts
1 Like
Until it’s time to upgrade again lol. Live’s a bit like Windows, you’re usually good doing every other release in most cases.
But honestly, I’m all for it. I think everyone here looks at “what DAW do I buy” through the jaded lens of adulting. $750 US is a lot of scratch when you have rent and car payment and insurance and kids and medical bills and a hot water heater that needs replacing. You’re in the envious position of not having any of that shit, so whatever money you can scrape together should absolutely be spent on whatever the hell you want, because this is probably the last time for a long time, maybe ever, that you’ll get to spend with zero consequences. Lord knows I spent my teens and early 20s flushing money down holes of various sorts. No regrets.
So fuck it. Go crazy. Enjoy.
2 Likes
But at least there’s free updates, right?
I was more referring to getting the money together to upgrade versions, etc. etc.
Yeah, free updates for the version (so buy v12 and get all the v12 updates for free). Major version upgrades are discounted, so upgrading 11 > 12 is like $150-200 US.
1 Like
Jesus, I just realized the pauper’s version of Reaper is only $60. Now there’s a DAW that caters to the people in need. You can technically just use it, but that mean little box is side-eyeing you. I’m also pretty sure you go to hell for that, too
I know it’s a lot like paying for Winrar, but I’d consider it for JSFX alone
Reaper’s really great at any price. I think it’s often ignored because it has an ugly interface out of the box (but there’s like a million skins and everything is customizable) and the usual “it’s free so it can’t be that good” thing, but man, there’s so much going on under the hood. It’s definitely got the most control, access and customization of any DAW by a country mile. Of course that requires diving into the guts to make it yours, but even out of the box I’d put it up against any of the track-based/ProTools lineage DAWs once you win the learning curve.
I donated to it years ago and keep a copy installed because sometimes it’s easier or more convenient to work in than Live. I’d be tempted to throw more money at it if I used it more regularly. It’s sort of like Audacity for me, pull it out once in a while to do a specific thing and then it goes back in the box for an age, but when you need it, you need it.
1 Like