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Old 27-05-2012, 07:13 PM   #41
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

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Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
In music, the term note has two primary meanings:
A sign used in musical notation to represent the relative duration and pitch of a sound;
A pitched sound itself.
A pitched sound.

A sound without pitch isn't a note. a wash of noise that fades in and fades out of indeterminate pitch and length is not a note but can be used as music. you could probably notate that using notes, you can adapt notation to describe just about anything, but the essence of music is sound. Musical notes area type of sound, not the other way around. and not all music is written as a song.

And don't be such a dick. Leave the insults out. Do you know what 'ad hominem' means?

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Old 27-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #42
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

It`s all about tones. Colors of emotions n shit. And Aphex & BOC are just very good at popmusics.
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Old 27-05-2012, 09:11 PM   #43
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

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humans made the music. it would not be music without the human intervention. music heard by a non-human would be valueless. it's a human defined term for a human thing. music is sound, notes are sound. one key difference though is that you can hear music as notes inside your mind, without it making a sound, and as i said earlier you can change the sound and keep the notes the same and most of the essence of a song, most of the time, will not have changed. what exactly is the problem with my logic?

i just think you guys are biased because production is generally about sound and not composition. so what say i put the lid back on this giant can of worms i kicked over and we revert back to the topic at hand? or you know, don't.
not gonna argue much as you seems just like a theorized guy , just know that " sound " dosnt need you to exist ... the humans arnt the only ones who consider sounds as it and thers as many " sound theory " as there are competent enough humans who could transcribe it in their own manner

i see music as sound images and colors in my head , you see them as notes , i can transcribe anything i hear to sound with exact pitch and i dont have a clue what that sound is called in the " theory " domain , whats the problem ? as i said everyone has his very own " self musical theory " as long as your not traditionally trained in wich case will completely lock your view to said " notes " wich isnt bad in itself for some specific music styles

Last edited by essenthy; 27-05-2012 at 09:17 PM..

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Old 27-05-2012, 09:29 PM   #44
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

I actually dont mind at all that people got interested in talking about this and I am always happy to see a big discussion even when it goes off in other directions. Ending up in other places that intended is what creativity is made of lots of the time!

However I will say that all the intellectualization and notes about definitions and theory are actually in a way opposite of the point I was trying to make.

Aside from the aspects of sound design and at times atonal avant garde forms of composition we sometimes listen to (stockhausen etc) I would say that some of what we consider to be the most meaningful musicians like Aphex, and BOC seem to have the mark of good old song writing in the very same way that The Beatles, Pink Floyd , Neil Young and all those "soulful" folks seem to have. This is evident by the fact that allot of APhex songs transfer so well to piano, steel drums, orchestras, musical boxes etc. Heliosphan, 4, fingerbib, hexagon, film, avril, all seem to really have that trait.

I made this point because the music of those guys is really a great contrast to allot of the soulless cold, lifeless stuff we hear so much in the realm of electronic stuff these days. I dont want to point fingers but I know some people have accused Amon Tobins newer stuff of being like this: all sound design wizardry, no emotional content. You could argue that that music possesses "soul" in a different way, but Im interested in why it is that those songwriters I mentioned above seem to resonate in people so much with their melodies.

My main interest here is to make guesses as to why those songwriters (many rock guys and a few choice electronic geniuses) have that soul. The best answer I can come up with is that their approach is one that lets the music flow in a way that is natural and that lets them get lost in the music so to speak. It seems that this happens more naturally with a person sitting at a piano or picking up a guitar, however it would seem that RDJ and those two scottish hermits, are able to do this in an electronic environment. However, as I said before, I have my suspicions that their songs are being written in a way that is much more close to the way that those bands/ songwriters work. I might even risk attack from all angles by taking a wild guess that some of the best electronic stuff starts on a guitar or piano first...

In a nutshell, Aphex, and BOC seem to be known by many as being what you would call the "best" in the field, and one of their main defining traits that sets them far apart is the excellent song writing. Many of their songs especially the well known ones could wow a classical audience if performed at a symphony or amaze a crowd at an elton john concert if he busted out a piano rendition.

Sorry for the long post, I got it all out of my system.
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Old 27-05-2012, 10:13 PM   #45
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

^How awesome would that be to see either one of these artists play their classic tracks with a philharmonic orchestra?

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Old 27-05-2012, 10:16 PM   #46
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

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Originally Posted by RFJ View Post
^How awesome would that be to see either one of these artists play their classic tracks with a philharmonic orchestra?

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Old 27-05-2012, 10:48 PM   #47
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

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Originally Posted by essenthy View Post
not gonna argue much as you seems just like a theorized guy , just know that " sound " dosnt need you to exist ... the humans arnt the only ones who consider sounds as it and thers as many " sound theory " as there are competent enough humans who could transcribe it in their own manner
since the OP doesn't mind, fine, let's talk semantics. i don't know theory, but im familiar with western pitch and have a fondness for blue notes, dead notes (largely unpitched noise) and discordance. these are names for things in music, not "theories". You might say I'm an "english" guy. I like words.

Quote:
i see music as sound images and colors in my head , you see them as notes
No i don't. I'm a visual person - i see swirling masses of colour interacting. I just name notes "notes" because I speak english.

Quote:
i hear to sound with exact pitch and i dont have a clue what that sound is called in the " theory " domain ,
Same here. That doesn't mean someone hasn't given a name to it to allow us to talk about it specifically. I do know that if it's a specific pitch it's a note.

Quote:
whats the problem ? as i said everyone has his very own " self musical theory " as long as your not traditionally trained in wich case will completely lock your view to said " notes " wich isnt bad in itself for some specific music styles
The problem is that you yourself are saying that everybody uses a personal musical theory and that's my point - theory is inescapable because it is purely a name for understanding music. I'm not traditionally trained, and my view is not "locked" to notes.

I shared a quote that had helped me compositionally. If you like, I'll send you the radio show where Robert Wyatt (again, who made some fucking weird music himself) explained his point of view on the subject. I also said it didn't apply to a lot of IDM before I even said it.

How about this? Patterns are comprised of intervals. I mean, I'm saying the exactly the same thing, but maybe that's easier to swallow.


Edit: here's a transcript.

RS: You've been referred to as the unclassifiable musician. Do you think that's fair enough?

RW: I would say that, because really I'm not bothered by the style. People get terribly involved, and you get almost sort of tribal wars between what comes down to different haircuts or different supposed attitudes. In the old days it was about whether you read melody maker or the MME or not. There's all these sort of ersatz political groupings, and I like that, but it has to do with youth growing up, it's a sociological issue, and it's not specifically a musical issue. Music is notes, in an order. Along with other notes. And there is universal truths in music, there is certain things that work. If you go like that that's a major chord. It's a major chord if a folk player plays it, if a jazz person plays it, or a classical person plays it. That's a major chord. That is a minor chord, whether a folk person plays it... it's very simple. If you want something ambiguous, that Debussey stuff, you use one of those modes. Those notes together make that sound. They're available to anybody, it's not a style it's just what notes do. And all that is is listening to all kinds of things to find out what kinds of things they really have in common. Within that, I will then write a tune someone will put a jazz solo on, or someone else will have a rock guitar on it or whatever, but to me the core of the thing is not to do with style, it's to do with some sort of musical essence that I like.

RS: Which is probably what people pick up on, I imagine.

RW: Well the other thing that can happen is, i've noticed this especially listening to music over the years, where people they've multilayered music with all kinds of apparently interesting things going on, there's textures, and attitudes, and things like that, and yet somehow after a few years or even minutes you won't be able to hear that anymore. And it's a big puzzle. Why is that? I think sometimes when you listen and you pin down what's happening there at the heart of it, there's nothing going on at the heart of it, it's all just effects layered on effects without the core meaning or event, a musical event going on. But it's hidden, like a skeleton is hidden. But for the music to have a character that really holds on to you, there's got to be something there, you know? If I'm trying to make a tune or a record, I won't let it out of the house until it seems to me like a kind of living thing, like a living breathing object, not just a kind of arresting or charming mechanical device. I won't let those out of the house, i could churn those out by the dozen but I want living things, you know? When I put on music it's not just for aurual stimulus, it's for company, it's to be with people I wouldn't otherwise be with. You know.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by md5() View Post
I like Wikipedia's definition:
"Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture."
me too. Remember the OP was about Aphex and BOCs "conventional songwriting". i was only ever talking about rhythm and pitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by md5() View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
By the way unknown__artist, your song and album names suck, and you're so varied I can never find what I'm looking for. What's up with that?
No need to personally insult someone.
you really think that's an obscure insult and not a joke? i wasn't talking about his music i was talking about his user name...

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghytwembpang View Post
And don't be such a dick. Leave the insults out. Do you know what 'ad hominem' means?
Let's review over what that might apply to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown__artist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
Music is sound, but sound isn't music until you make it music.
This statement has no objective value whatsoever.
Untrue and extreme, just sounds like an insult to me. Music is subjective anyway, and that was my point. Art is whatever you say it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
I don't see why there needs to be this airy, nebulous point about intentionally challenging forms of music.
UA: Nebulous means "ill-defined".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
somehow that implies that i know theory and that i'm elitist and ignorant.
No insults here, I'm just feeling insulted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown__artist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
please do me a favour and read my posts after I reread them and edited them.
Please, do me a favour, and read what other people wrote
Sounds pretty insulting to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown__artist View Post
Given the link I posted above, I fail to see how this is not your or a definition of music, and rather the definition of music.
the definition of note, ass.
This is after several posts of UA arguing against a point I am not making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown__artist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
By the way unknown__artist, your song and album names suck, and you're so varied I can never find what I'm looking for. What's up with that?
Nothing at all my friend. I guess when you'll grow up you'll get it.
I try to lighten the mood, unknown artist patronises me. Unknown Arti-forget it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmabbit View Post
i just think you guys are biased because production is generally about sound and not composition.
I don't see how this is rude. My point of view is production is about sound and composition is about notes, and both are parts of music. We're on a forum devoted to the subject of sound design, but this subforum is devoted to composition and musical theory, and I am merely discussing a subject in that context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown__artist View Post
No problem with your logic (more with your manners, I'd say).
He then agrees with me, then says that i'm rude and he isn't.
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tl;dr if you haven't read everything i've said maybe you shouldn't comment on it.

Last edited by gmabbit; 28-05-2012 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 28-05-2012, 04:00 PM   #48
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Re: aphex, BOC musicianship

That's so awesome.

At first I just briefly looked at it without playing, thought it was the original, and was like...

Pfft what's he saying...doesn't he know I've heard that shit before?

Then I woke up this morning, skimmed that tl;dr post just before mine here, played the video and was like...

Oh...now I see. That's pretty rad.

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