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Old 29-01-2012, 02:33 AM   #1
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Being paid for losing privacy?

Ok, so with the file-sharing under attack, privacy quickly going out of the window and a general movement towards an internet geared towards commerce rather than the free expression of ideas and creativity I've been considering the various ways to go about making things more even towards us, the individual.

One idea I've been considering is that I'm going to go underground - TOR, cookies and scripts blocked, scroogle rather than google, remove my facebook profile, etc. and simply remove myself as much as I can from the data gathering exercise.
But that seems like I'm having to do without the part of the internet that everyone else is using regularly and if only I do it it would be pointless, nothing would really be achieved (maybe me x100000+ might do something but getting that many people to inconvenience themselves is unlikely).

My main motivation for this is fairly simple, I don't want companies using my information for their profit.

One thing I have thought though, is that I wouldn't be so put out if the data-gathering actually profited myself as well (I'm sure this sounds better to many people than my first option above as well)

I find the argument that I do receive the benefit of adverts that are aimed at my tastes and search results that crafted to my surfing habits to be lame and erroneous, those 'benefits' only raises the potential for me becoming even poorer and more ignorant. How is that actually good for me?

So, I was thinking, maybe there should be a way I can profit, which for a start should take the form of sites like Facebook giving me a share of the profits they make from selling MY data to various companies. I mean you would expect to be paid for doing those online surveys, Facebook is simply that with a chat function.

For every company that pays Facebook for information I, as the one who filled in all the blanks on my page, should be paid a percentage based on how much I filled out.

I know this idea could probably never really kick off without a mass movement to force companies to take the concept seriously but really I'm just brain storming.

So, does my idea have any merit? If not why. (I can think of a few things but I wouldn't mind other POVs to see if you guys see the same issues or not)

Also feel free to share your thoughts on how the internet could be made fairer for all involved.



TL;DR

Is it possible to make money from sites gathering our data?
We also, in this thread, discuss the various ways in which we could come to profit from the breakdown in internet privacy.

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Old 29-01-2012, 02:34 AM   #2
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Also, in before "why the fuck ask this here?"

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Old 29-01-2012, 02:56 AM   #3
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Data prostitution.

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Old 29-01-2012, 02:59 AM   #4
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Yep and why not?

Its not like they're doing it out of love.





































The bastards.
/Brokenhearted and butthurt

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Old 29-01-2012, 03:02 AM   #5
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Well the E.U. are planning the data protection directive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive
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Old 29-01-2012, 03:13 AM   #6
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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Originally Posted by dapt funk View Post
Well the E.U. are planning the data protection directive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive

And facebook will still make millions selling data after this goes through. I'm saying we should get a slice as well.

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Old 29-01-2012, 03:47 AM   #7
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

No they wont be able to trade your private information and will have to delete it if you ask them. Thats the point of the legislation. And in a way you already do get paid, free access to their service plus when you signed up you agreed to let them have your information.

Facebooks biggest revenue stream comes from gifting, not selling private information. Anyway, what sort of information could facebook be keeping on you that is worth anything?
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Old 29-01-2012, 04:07 AM   #8
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Its not the private information that FB collects from directly, its more indirect in the sense that they advertise products based on your likes. Neural, if this SOPA act and what the E.U. is proposing goes through, then there will be no choice but to go "underground". I've shared alot of the same sentiment toward your ideas on this, but as far as making a profit from selling information...As much as I would love to see something like that come out of all this mess, in theory its a fantastic idea, in practice however..im uncertain. Quite simply, a majority of Facebook users are still going to use it, so there is going to be very little change in their marketing gimmickry. I suppose that it could be like any prohibition, more regulation is only going to create a larger "black market" so who knows, people that are aware of this may actually profit from it. Its just a perspective, I cant say for sure because I just don't know!

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Old 29-01-2012, 04:08 AM   #9
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapt funk View Post
No they wont be able to trade your private information and will have to delete it if you ask them. Thats the point of the legislation. And in a way you already do get paid, free access to their service plus when you signed up you agreed to let them have your information.
I don't see anything preventing them selling the information (although I am tired and don't have my glasses so only read it in a blurred way), especially if the T&C have been signed (upon sign up as you mention) and there's a clause explaining the data will be shared.

Quote:
Facebooks biggest revenue stream comes from gifting, not selling private information. Anyway, what sort of information could facebook be keeping on you that is worth anything?
I'm not sure what you mean by gifting, if you mean advertising revenue then, yeah sure they make that money by being a direct marketing platform, that is where the information usage comes in.

As for what is worth anything, personally on my facebook page, not much, I've removed nearly all the info but every time an ad pops up related to something I had written in my "info" section I see another example of what Facebook really is about. To Facebook, every single piece of information can pretty much be used for commercial purposes, from your age and sex to what your hobbies are or what you ate for dinner, even your location.

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Old 29-01-2012, 04:41 AM   #10
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

  • information to be given to the data subject: the controller must provide the data subject from whom data are collected with certain information relating to himself/herself (the identity of the controller, the purposes of the processing, recipients of the data etc.);
  • the data subject's right of access to data: every data subject should have the right to obtain from the controller:
    1. confirmation as to whether or not data relating to him/her are being processed and communication of the data undergoing processing;
    2. the rectification, erasure or blocking of data the processing of which does not comply with the provisions of this Directive in particular, either because of the incomplete or inaccurate nature of the data, and the notification of these changes to third parties to whom the data have been disclosed.
the right to object to the processing of data: the data subject should have the right to object, on legitimate grounds, to the processing of data relating to him/her. He/she should also have the right to object, on request and free of charge, to the processing of personal data that the controller anticipates being processed for the purposes of direct marketing. He/she should finally be informed before personal data are disclosed to third parties for the purposes of direct marketing, and be expressly offered the right to object to such disclosures;


http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l14012_en.htm


reads to me that you have to be told what info is being collected, the purposes of that collection and that you have the right to object to how the data is being used. So, they wont be able to sell your information without your consent.
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Old 29-01-2012, 04:51 AM   #11
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon Vhon Skream View Post
Its not the private information that FB collects from directly, its more indirect in the sense that they advertise products based on your likes. Neural, if this SOPA act and what the E.U. is proposing goes through, then there will be no choice but to go "underground". I've shared alot of the same sentiment toward your ideas on this, but as far as making a profit from selling information...As much as I would love to see something like that come out of all this mess, in theory its a fantastic idea, in practice however..im uncertain. Quite simply, a majority of Facebook users are still going to use it, so there is going to be very little change in their marketing gimmickry. I suppose that it could be like any prohibition, more regulation is only going to create a larger "black market" so who knows, people that are aware of this may actually profit from it. Its just a perspective, I cant say for sure because I just don't know!
Sorry just saw you post.

I was thinking (theoretically) that if a site was set up that did the social networking thing but was run in such a way that that something of the profit from the direct marketing bit was actually fed back to the users then that would be really attractive, you could also add incentives for people to add more to their likes and similar info.

And yeah a part of me hopes the black market kicks off in a big way (or at least the lil' anarchist/anti-capitalist in me does anyway).

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Old 29-01-2012, 04:56 AM   #12
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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Originally Posted by dapt funk View Post

reads to me that you have to be told what info is being collected, the purposes of that collection and that you have the right to object to how the data is being used. So, they wont be able to sell your information without your consent.
Oh yeah sure, I see that. I don't see how that will really make any difference to sites like facebook though. They add a few words to the T&C, add a few notifications and they've covered themselves again.
By objecting you can't use the site, I'm not against them making money, but when a large portion of that money is made because they can use information you provide I think they should be willing to give a little back. Offering the service for free doesn't really cover it.

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Old 29-01-2012, 04:57 AM   #13
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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Originally Posted by NeuralPunk View Post
Sorry just saw you post.

I was thinking (theoretically) that if a site was set up that did the social networking thing but was run in such a way that that something of the profit from the direct marketing bit was actually fed back to the users then that would be really attractive, you could also add incentives for people to add more to their likes and similar info.

And yeah a part of me hopes the black market kicks off in a big way (or at least the lil' anarchist/anti-capitalist in me does anyway).
Kind of like secret shopping! In an off the beat kind of way..i totally dig it. (Splinternet for life!)

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Old 29-01-2012, 10:13 AM   #14
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/12/09/...th-to-charity/

just think of his donations as having been contributed to by your willingness to allow the selling of your information for the acquisition of the wealth he now intends to donate to charities.

http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics

if zuckerberg is worth $6.9 billion, and facebook has what 800 million users, thats like $9 that he has made off each person on facebook since it was created.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...542942364.html

that article states that the wall street journal estimated the value of the facebook company to be worth $75 to $100 billion. thats about $100 made off each user since it was founded in 2004. Not a whole lot when you think about it.

When you say you'd like to get paid, your not going to get much.

I was talking about virtual gifts. It is possible to send your friends virtual gifts, like flowers or a pint of beer on facebook.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:46 AM   #15
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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Originally Posted by NeuralPunk View Post
I find the argument that I do receive the benefit of adverts that are aimed at my tastes and search results that crafted to my surfing habits to be lame and erroneous, those 'benefits' only raises the potential for me becoming even poorer and more ignorant. How is that actually good for me?
You should be using advertising as a means to discover things you want to buy, not as a trap to buy things you don't want. Anybody who becomes poorer as a result of advertising is either a child or an idiot (I know full well you're neither), the latter of which deserves to lose money. Idiot tax.

As for profiting, why should you? You're the punter. You don't walk into a club and claim a % of the profit just for adding to the great atmosphere.

If you think their price is too high, stop using their service.
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Old 29-01-2012, 03:09 PM   #16
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this what already happens with supermarket cards? You get one of this cards, fill in your details, and then collect points that are transferred in product value. Let's suppose just for example that they gave you actual money. What you are selling are you actual food habits, say, which could be considered as your DATA in your example. The flipside of the coin is that contributing to some statistical analysys, and being supermarket places whose only aim is to make money, you may not find anymore that weird food you like in your neighborhood, 'cause it's not populated by your profile type, and they know it precisely. So, for the money you get, which I'm supposing to be quite little, you have less diversity around you, and this I find it to be quite a bad thing...
Tesco does this in the Uk all the time.
The example of Solarite concerning a club is also quite relevant, I think.
As for Facebook and shit like this, I always ask myself why the fuck do we depend on these companies as a medium for the relational substratum between individuals, but this is definetly the little anarchist inside me speaking...

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Old 29-01-2012, 03:28 PM   #17
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

I understand some of the resentment towards facebook Nueral, but by paying people to go on social networks you're only encouraging something which you basically think is a bs waste of time, right?

Is that a good thing to want to do? How many unemployed mongs would you be encouraging to go and buy a computer only to go onto the net to earn (I'm sure it would be less than) UK min wage? (if hosted in USA)
What info or potential buying power would these people bring to the site owner?
The answer is very little and that's why this probably wouldn't work imo.

Get yourself adblocker and you won't be constantly reminded that fb was watching when in a drunken haze you "liked" Wiley or whatever it is that's coming back to haunt you.
If you don't share your info in the first place then they can't sell it back to you, unless of course your "friends" share your info on your behalf.
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Old 29-01-2012, 06:07 PM   #18
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapt funk View Post
http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/12/09/...th-to-charity/

just think of his donations as having been contributed to by your willingness to allow the selling of your information for the acquisition of the wealth he now intends to donate to charities.
Charities that I haven't chosen, didn't have a choice in. Nice idea though except for the few billion hes keeping.

Quote:

http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics

if zuckerberg is worth $6.9 billion, and facebook has what 800 million users, thats like $9 that he has made off each person on facebook since it was created.
[/quote]

Not a lot but then the service has expanded at varying rates so users would have potentially received differing amounts.

Quote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...542942364.html

that article states that the wall street journal estimated the value of the facebook company to be worth $75 to $100 billion. thats about $100 made off each user since it was founded in 2004. Not a whole lot when you think about it.
Depends where you live.


Quote:
I was talking about virtual gifts. It is possible to send your friends virtual gifts, like flowers or a pint of beer on facebook.

Oh yeah, had completely forgotten about those. Well here is a beer from me that doesn't require me paying for.

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Old 29-01-2012, 06:11 PM   #19
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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Originally Posted by Solarite View Post
You should be using advertising as a means to discover things you want to buy, not as a trap to buy things you don't want. Anybody who becomes poorer as a result of advertising is either a child or an idiot (I know full well you're neither), the latter of which deserves to lose money. Idiot tax.
The moment you exchange goods for anything that doesn't appreciate in value over time you get poorer.

Quote:
As for profiting, why should you? You're the punter. You don't walk into a club and claim a % of the profit just for adding to the great atmosphere.
Different market. A club doesn't keep records of my activities and sell my information to third parties.


Quote:
If you think their price is too high, stop using their service.
Did you read my first post?

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Old 29-01-2012, 06:20 PM   #20
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Re: Being paid for losing privacy?

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I understand some of the resentment towards facebook Nueral, but by paying people to go on social networks you're only encouraging something which you basically think is a bs waste of time, right?
I don't think they are a complete waste of time. There are people I haven't seen in over a decade who I now see regularly thanks to social networking. But I dislike the fact that there isn't some kind of opt out option for the information sharing, I understand legislation is being introduced to help deal with this but the movement towards an internet for profit makers is growing in pace. And that scares the hell out of me thanks to various experiences both working in them and meeting the people who run them.

Quote:
Is that a good thing to want to do? How many unemployed mongs would you be encouraging to go and buy a computer only to go onto the net to earn (I'm sure it would be less than) UK min wage? (if hosted in USA)
What info or potential buying power would these people bring to the site owner?
The answer is very little and that's why this probably wouldn't work imo.
I'm pretty sure many of these people do most shopping online now anyhow, so they are very much the target audience for marketers. They are also the kind of people who sit around doing surveys to earn a quid or two anyway, so why not integrate the two things and make it all transparent.

Quote:
Get yourself adblocker and you won't be constantly reminded that fb was watching when in a drunken haze you "liked" Wiley or whatever it is that's coming back to haunt you.
Done and done a looong time ago. But that doesn't stop the site from attempting to push this stuff.

Quote:
If you don't share your info in the first place then they can't sell it back to you, unless of course your "friends" share your info on your behalf.
And this is where the whole thing gets messy. Facebook (for example, I know Google seem to be heading the same way) seems to be gearing themselves towards promoting this kind of behavior.

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