Anti-Phase stereo imaging
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Old 20-08-2015, 12:40 AM   #1
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Anti-Phase stereo imaging EXPERT OPINION NEEDED!!!!

So recently I was working on a track, and i decided to put the waves PAZ position plug in on a few of my sounds to see what the stereo image looked like.

Some of them had a lot of anti phase going on. So what I did was put the flux stereo tool V3 on it.
After that I turned both channels to be directed inwards equally untill almost zero anti phase was occurring on both sides. Instantly the sound became more propionate and literally sounded like it was coming from right behind my screen, rather then from my monitors.

Did I just figure out one of the secrets of mixing?!?!?! is Anti Phase ever a good thing?

I've tried to research this on my own but I couldn't find much on the subject. If anyone can direct me to a credible source on this I would appreciate it.

Last edited by Zerox0013x; 20-08-2015 at 12:44 AM.. Reason: Need an expert opinion so I added it to the title

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Old 20-08-2015, 02:49 AM   #2
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

I've never heard of anti-phase stereo imaging, but it sounds to me like when you get the sound to come from behind the monitor, you're putting all of your signal into a mono signal shared exactly between the two monitors (the mid in mid/side processing). You have the exact same signal coming from two different sources at the same time, so your brain thinks it's coming from the center point between them. That might be something you want to do for kicks and vocals or whatever you use as the lead in your music. If your source was mono and you panned it to the center, you should hear the same thing, me thinks.
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Old 20-08-2015, 03:14 AM   #3
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

No, you didn't discover a "one of the secrets of mixing". You just flipped/inverted the phase of one your L or R side, on a mono source, which usually is something you want to avoid (unless you want to use it as an effect).

If you sum/play this "out of phase sound" on a mono speaker, that sound will be silent.

You can flip one side of a stereo track (a song/track) and sum it to mono. The result will be that everything centered (kick, snare, bass, vocals, etc) will be phase cancelled, so you won't hear it.
Try it.

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Old 20-08-2015, 04:48 AM   #4
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

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Originally Posted by Evelon View Post
No, you didn't discover a "one of the secrets of mixing". You just flipped/inverted the phase of one your L or R side, on a mono source, which usually is something you want to avoid (unless you want to use it as an effect).

If you sum/play this "out of phase sound" on a mono speaker, that sound will be silent.

You can flip one side of a stereo track (a song/track) and sum it to mono. The result will be that everything centered (kick, snare, bass, vocals, etc) will be phase cancelled, so you won't hear it.
Try it.

Ehh, I dont think thats what I did to be honest.
For starters the synths were in stereo to begin with.

I have a gain plug in that allows me to flip the phase of the L or R and it doesn't sound like the effect I get with the adjustments i did on the flux stereo tool. Nor does it look like it on the waves PAZ position.

When I flip the phase of one side on the gain plug in there is a TON of anti-phase going on. Which would lead me to believe that anti-phase is what would be causing frequencies to cancel out.

When I said I would pull the left and right channel inwards I was making sure NOT to make it mono. Most of the time only 50%. I would do it just enough so it wouldn't register any anti-phase. In a way limiting its width capacity, but afterwords I would widen the image to fill up the space I had left over.
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Old 20-08-2015, 04:53 AM   #5
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

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Originally Posted by White Noise View Post
I've never heard of anti-phase stereo imaging, but it sounds to me like when you get the sound to come from behind the monitor, you're putting all of your signal into a mono signal shared exactly between the two monitors (the mid in mid/side processing). You have the exact same signal coming from two different sources at the same time, so your brain thinks it's coming from the center point between them. That might be something you want to do for kicks and vocals or whatever you use as the lead in your music. If your source was mono and you panned it to the center, you should hear the same thing, me thinks.
Look up the waves PAZ position. It has a display where very hard left and hard right of the stereo field there is an area for anti-phase. I would still have a stereo signal but it was limited to a designated space set by the Flux stereo tool
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Old 20-08-2015, 06:05 AM   #6
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

EDIT: In a long, round about way, I said I didn't really understand what was going on and said to listen to what evelon has to say. He (or she, I don't know) knows what they're talking about.

Last edited by White Noise; 20-08-2015 at 07:36 AM..
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Old 20-08-2015, 08:04 AM   #7
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

Unless you are looking to play around with stereo gimmicks like for example,BoC,i'd stay away from anti-phase if mono compatibility is a concern.i don't know what you are after but if you are after really wide sounds that correlate well back to mono,construct your own unison out of a combination of voicing,tuning,timing,slight timbral changes and contrast it with mono elements,also use dual mono plug-in's

essentially what you are doing though with Flux thingy is just adjusting the balances between the left and right to reign in the phase cancellation caused by the beating frequencies,or differences in their left and right inaccurately referred to as "sides" (i don't know for certain cause i've never used that plugin.makes sense atleast)
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Old 20-08-2015, 10:06 AM   #8
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

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Originally Posted by TIMT View Post
Unless you are looking to play around with stereo gimmicks like for example,BoC,i'd stay away from anti-phase if mono compatibility is a concern.i don't know what you are after but if you are after really wide sounds that correlate well back to mono,construct your own unison out of a combination of voicing,tuning,timing,slight timbral changes and contrast it with mono elements,also use dual mono plug-in's

essentially what you are doing though with Flux thingy is just adjusting the balances between the left and right to reign in the phase cancellation caused by the beating frequencies,or differences in their left and right inaccurately referred to as "sides" (i don't know for certain cause i've never used that plugin.makes sense atleast)
(anti-phase means out of phase)
LOL. Maybe it was the title that misled people. But TIMT gets where I'm coming from. Thats exactly what im trying to do. Im trying to achieve a wide stereo image without having those out-of-phase issues harassing me. I've notice when I do this to my synths, leads, and FX it really makes my percussion and bass stand out without any compression at all. For the longest time I thought it was an EQ issue. I would have a stack of maybe 12 EQs on one track trying to make it fit. At the same time I was giving it a huge stereo image without limiting how far it goes. (i'm still learning LMAO) It would either be a hit or miss.

Then I stuck a stereo graphic plug in on it and there it was, I was having CRAZY phase issues that were canceling out all the good stuff. On the track I'm working on at the moment I hardly have to do anymore with EQ then to cut off the low end on all the higher frequency tracks.

Less really is a LOT better, which I've been told many times. It's just figuring out what is needed, when it's needed.
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Old 20-08-2015, 01:29 PM   #9
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerox0013x View Post
Ehh, I dont think thats what I did to be honest.
For starters the synths were in stereo to begin with.

I have a gain plug in that allows me to flip the phase of the L or R and it doesn't sound like the effect I get with the adjustments i did on the flux stereo tool. Nor does it look like it on the waves PAZ position.

When I flip the phase of one side on the gain plug in there is a TON of anti-phase going on. Which would lead me to believe that anti-phase is what would be causing frequencies to cancel out.

When I said I would pull the left and right channel inwards I was making sure NOT to make it mono. Most of the time only 50%. I would do it just enough so it wouldn't register any anti-phase. In a way limiting its width capacity, but afterwords I would widen the image to fill up the space I had left over.
I read you first post again.
You just botched the mids (M/identicals) and enhanced the sides (S/differences), just like any stereo-enhancer tool does. Is that correct?
It can be a cool effect in stereo though, but will yield a different mix once in mono.

Last edited by Evelon; 20-08-2015 at 01:42 PM..

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Old 20-08-2015, 04:28 PM   #10
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

when stuff is wildly out of phase, it can sound really wierd (good or bad) on headphones vs speakers.
it's normal to have some out of phase content in a normal stereo mix. if everything was in phase but not pure mono, it would be like microphoning your speakers using an XY coincident pair.

If you ever listened to an XY coincident pair recording, you know that they are mono compatible but rather weak in terms of stereo imaging. Normal stereo sound consists of some mono, some stereo, and some out of phase and lots of stuff inbetween those.

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Old 21-08-2015, 03:35 AM   #11
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

subbing need to work on my stereo skills more, wanna see where this goes
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Old 21-12-2015, 10:31 AM   #12
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

so basically what you did was simply narrowing the stereo image?

You don't need special plugs for that, just use the standard width knob that comes with every daw.

You're not getting rid of any phase cancellations, just centering them a bit more. Basically making them more audible (stereo phase is more audible the closer your output gets to mono)
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Old 23-12-2015, 01:22 PM   #13
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Re: Anti-Phase stereo imaging

That's a great topic, I've been messing for a long with anti phase in the mix and I thought it was a total mixing mistake. But you know what? Try to drag in your DAW a track by Eskmo or Amon Tobin and have a look to the phase analyzerůmany of their samples are in anti phase. Ok, maybe it's not the snare, it's a pad or the higher frequencies of a bass, but it depends really on the style of music: a mainstream pop song, which is supposed to be played on radio, shouldn't have anything in anti phase, because when you play the song in mono, all the stuff in anti phase just disappears. But personally I think that in instrumental/experimental stuff , if your aim is to widen the stereo image and create a feeling of "environment", who cares about disappearing issues in mono?

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