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Old 10-03-2017, 02:38 PM   #41
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

so many experts..we must be experiencing a renaissance!

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Old 10-03-2017, 02:40 PM   #42
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

No one ever asked for an opinion on "the mix"

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:07 PM   #43
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Originally Posted by hellscion View Post
No one ever asked for an opinion on "the mix"
^Given the reality of systems sounding radically different and the influence of the room, I think an opinion on mix is likely one of the most valuable opinions one can receive.

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What I find more odd than people offering feedback, solicited or not, is when people disagree with the feedback they receive. This happens in the LB from time to time and it always leaves me scratching my head when I see it.

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:14 PM   #44
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Too many people also take honest criticism of their work as a criticism of their character. You have to either be naive or have a certain ego to throw valid criticism aside like that.
This. I hate it when people ask me for honest criticism of their work and then get all annoyed when it's not all super positive.
There are a couple of people I know that I decided I won't give criticism to anymore for exactly this reason. Everytime I have criticised something they made it ended up turning into some form of drama and I just cannot be arsed anymore. I decided to let them find out through other people instead as it's just not worth it. Usually when they get the same criticism from people they do not know as well they seem to take it less personal.

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:15 PM   #45
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Originally Posted by RFJ View Post

What I find more odd than people offering feedback, solicited or not, is when people disagree with the feedback they receive. This happens in the LB from time to time and it always leaves me scratching my head when I see it.
I've noticed this often enough as well. Almost exclusively I've found that the artist denying the validity of the feedback to be, well, "in denial" about the state of their track. Mostly the tracks are not trainwrecks, however they often need work in the areas the critics note.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:21 PM   #46
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

Not about music..but hey, everyone's a critic.


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Old 30-03-2017, 08:16 PM   #47
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

The same reason you reference from many speakers.

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Old 31-03-2017, 05:38 AM   #48
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Originally Posted by RFJ View Post
^Given the reality of systems sounding radically different and the influence of the room, I think an opinion on mix is likely one of the most valuable opinions one can receive.

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What I find more odd than people offering feedback, solicited or not, is when people disagree with the feedback they receive. This happens in the LB from time to time and it always leaves me scratching my head when I see it.
I'm no expert and fuck knows I've made a few ears bleed in my day. From the knowledge of mixing I have personally gained to the implementing of said knowledge, Music production doesn't necessarily require a deep understanding of composition but it does EVERY BIT require a fundamental understanding of mixing. So imho I would agree that the mix is by far the most critical things anyone could apply to their track. After that is figured out, arrangement can come into focus. Shit mixes=shit tracks no matter how elaborate it is in a playlist. +1 to you RFJ and Hellscion. And all of you (probably disgruntled IDMf vets) that agree with this.

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Old 31-03-2017, 01:17 PM   #49
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

One part of art, music, is tools and techniques. That is all beginner stuff, though. Making music isn't really that difficult or complicated. Making music that people actually want to listen to is a different story..'The mix' really isn't even the right place to start because the majority of people that listen to music don't listen for that nonsense. That's all stuff done to prepare music for commercial productions, hence the use of the term 'production' but I don't give a fuck about any of that personally and I'm not sure why anyone else does either..unless you like your music to sound like an over-compressed and loud TV or Radio commercial...

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Old 31-03-2017, 01:27 PM   #50
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Originally Posted by hellscion View Post
One part of art, music, is tools and techniques. That is all beginner stuff, though. Making music isn't really that difficult or complicated. Making music that people actually want to listen to is a different story..'The mix' really isn't even the right place to start because the majority of people that listen to music don't listen for that nonsense. That's all stuff done to prepare music for commercial productions, hence the use of the term 'production' but I don't give a fuck about any of that personally and I'm not sure why anyone else does either..unless you like your music to sound like an over-compressed and loud TV or Radio commercial...
You don't think all that old Industrial shit you like was produced, mixed and mastered?
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Old 31-03-2017, 01:31 PM   #51
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

also compared to music recording systems of the 80s, 90s, and even early 2000's, the computers really do most of the work for you in this regard...Do you realize the number of background processes in modern DAW's and how they alter your sound? It is actually really easy to get a professional sound with them..That's another thing sound quality isn't really an issue like it was then. The issue now is making good music again that actually utilizes this advanced software and not just recycling older music in higher quality sound..

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Old 31-03-2017, 01:41 PM   #52
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Originally Posted by hellscion View Post
also compared to music recording systems of the 80s, 90s, and even early 2000's, the computers really do most of the work for you in this regard...Do you realize the number of background processes in modern DAW's and how they alter your sound? It is actually really easy to get a professional sound with them..That's another thing sound quality isn't really an issue like it was then. The issue now is making good music again that actually utilizes this advanced software and not just recycling older music in higher quality sound..
To be fair this is almost true.
I'd say it's easier than it was but still not easy.
I think issues can arise when people start to think it's easy and things can't go wrong because computers.
That's just plain naive and complacent.
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Old 31-03-2017, 01:52 PM   #53
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

@hellscion; Enlighten us with all these background processes in DAW that are contributing to a quality mix, what are they? If I record myself talking, playing a guitar, crumpling paper, what have you, what I'm going to get with a modern DAW is a less lossy sound. I'm still going to need to know how to mix those clean recording though and what I'm hearing will be different from system to system. I'm likely to have to compensate for that in some way and I'm definitely going to have to reference and mix accordingly. While all feedback is subjective I'd say when talking mix vs composition and arrangement, the mix is the lease subjective of the two.

Last edited by RFJ; 31-03-2017 at 01:56 PM.. Reason: Argh

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Old 31-03-2017, 01:54 PM   #54
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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To be fair this is almost true.
I'd say it's easier than it was but still not easy.
I think issues can arise when people start to think it's easy and things can't go wrong because computers.
That's just plain naive and complacent.
Yeah that is a good point. Music sounding poorly mixed isn't really an issue I have even with a majority of even very amateur music these days..not like anything makes my speakers rattle with sound clipping. I remember a few years back when people used Tracker programs a lot of that stuff would literally damage your speakers(and ears..) because of weird resonant low frequencies and shit like that..It seems like if anyone does this now it's intentional and done by noise and experimental people and they have to learn how to make music clip because the software will cut the audio off, on most software anyways..

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Old 31-03-2017, 02:12 PM   #55
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

This is some good deflection.

I've never heard of trackers causing injuries to people...
could you link me to some background reading on that please?
It's weird because I'd assume it would be the top end that damaged people's hearing more often, being that it's a lot easier for most people to faithfully reproduce due to the speaker sizes and output volumes you'd need to damage someone's hearing with low frequencies.

Sure, people can run into issues with DC offset and phase issues and stuff quite easily if they don't know what they're doing or that they even exist, which most people don't when they're just getting into writing music.

It's not hard to push a signal into overdrive/distortion and still have it record within the parameters of digital playback. It's basic gain staging.
Digital clipping is not nice imo.
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Old 31-03-2017, 02:22 PM   #56
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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This is some good deflection.

I've never heard of trackers causing injuries to people...
could you link me to some background reading on that please?
It's weird because I'd assume it would be the top end that damaged people's hearing more often, being that it's a lot easier for most people to faithfully reproduce due to the speaker sizes and output volumes you'd need to damage someone's hearing with low frequencies.

Sure, people can run into issues with DC offset and phase issues and stuff quite easily if they don't know what they're doing or that they even exist, which most people don't when they're just getting into writing music.

It's not hard to push a signal into overdrive/distortion and still have it record within the parameters of digital playback. It's basic gain staging.
Digital clipping is not nice imo.
It's when you do something wrong like setting the frequency in an envelope filter way too fast with a big reverb effect. and the audio starts getting louder exponentially. You can do this with newer software but it will cut automatically mute the channel/master whichever..You've never had this happen? I'm pointing this out because up to a point, certain period in time when people mentioned "the mix" or anything like that, this was what they were generally referring to

Some clarification, the low frequencies would damage your speaker, the high frequencies would damage your ears..I've encountered both but like i said it's been a few years and that is part of why i'm saying that I don't think it's an issue, there's built-in gain reduction and compression in just about everything these days..

Last edited by hellscion; 31-03-2017 at 02:36 PM.. Reason: oops

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Old 31-03-2017, 02:34 PM   #57
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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@hellscion; Enlighten us with all these background processes in DAW that are contributing to a quality mix, what are they? If I record myself talking, playing a guitar, crumpling paper, what have you, what I'm going to get with a modern DAW is a less lossy sound. I'm still going to need to know how to mix those clean recording though and what I'm hearing will be different from system to system. I'm likely to have to compensate for that in some way and I'm definitely going to have to reference and mix accordingly. While all feedback is subjective I'd say when talking mix vs composition and arrangement, the mix is the lease subjective of the two.
This is complicated but I think other people can explain it better than myself,

https://soundista.com/do-different-d...und-different/

When you play a sound in different DAWs it does, or should, sound the same. When you start mixing a song and putting something together, they do not sound the same at all. Why is that?

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Old 31-03-2017, 02:41 PM   #58
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

Nope.
I've messed around with running really fast envelope rates in Runciter (for example) and then out through a big reverb, but never encountered that phenomenon.
How does that cause the volume to increase exponentially without a feedback loop?

Oh...so this is more of an issue with definitions then? People "on the internet" using the wrong terminology just because they don't know any better you mean? A bit like the "Producer" debate we have here at IDMf from time to time?
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Old 31-03-2017, 02:42 PM   #59
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

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Nope.
I've messed around with running really fast envelope rates in Runciter (for example) and then out through a big reverb, but never encountered that phenomenon.
How does that cause the volume to increase exponentially without a feedback loop?

Oh...so this is more of an issue with definitions then? People "on the internet" using the wrong terminology just because they don't know any better you mean? A bit like the "Producer" debate we have here at IDMf from time to time?
Yeah a feedback loop, you know I mean.

with software it can happen in other ways especially with buggy beta software and shit like that

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Old 31-03-2017, 02:48 PM   #60
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Re: Why criticize someones art?

I was expecting a bunch of technical hoo-ha with that article but it doesn't really say much or speak to any of these "background processes" I was asking you about. It does however say this, which I think speaks less to your point and more to needing to know how to mix than anything else...

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So does that mean that one DAW sounds better than another? Not really – maybe you will slightly prefer the sound of your track through Ableton to the sound of your track through Logic, but that doesn’t make it ‘better’ it just means you prefer it that way; these things are always subjective to an extent. Perhaps the sound of one DAW, even if it is different from the sound of the next, just isn’t that important. Surely the main job of any DAW is just to not get in the way of the creative process? If a program allows you to express yourself quickly and easily; if it doesn’t get in the way of the creation of your music, then this must be more important that any minor difference in sound? Ultimately a great recording can be made within any platform, and so can a bad recording! Mark Hornsby, a Nashville producer who has worked with the likes of Dolly Parton, has this to say; “On a very technical level I could make an argument that different DAWs sound different. But on a practical level, nobody’s going to say that any DAW does a bad job. Different environments lead you to make different creative decisions when you record, mix or edit, so it’s pointless to compare them side by side”.

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