What do we do about the debt crisis?
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Old 24-07-2015, 05:03 PM   #1
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What do we do about the debt crisis?

You guys are more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to certain things. Any ideas about how we can resolve the debt crisis. Any thoughts or observations about capitalism and
socio-economics?

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Old 24-07-2015, 05:26 PM   #2
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Read "Surviving Progress" or watch the summarized documentary by the same name.

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Old 24-07-2015, 05:28 PM   #3
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

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Originally Posted by relic View Post
Read "Surviving Progress" or watch the summarized documentary by the same name.
I'll check it out....anyone else have an opinion they'd like to share...or should we just look at surviving progress.

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Old 24-07-2015, 05:32 PM   #4
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

This seems to be a US of A related thread, amirite?

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Old 24-07-2015, 05:38 PM   #5
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

I mean beyond personal responsibility and not falling for predatory lending I am not sure there is much we can do as individuals on a national level...the thing is all this "money" is based on nothing...a lot of economics and banking is kind of pseudo science...

I like social programs, but if people were just more willing to help people in their communities and keep things local I think we could reduce what we spend on a lot of social programs. The bigger a program gets the "less real" the money becomes. If things were kept at a local level I suspect we would mostly be dealing with promissory notes (dollar dolla bills) which is the least abstract monetary concept. but I am talking inviting your unemployed neighbors to dinner three times a week and helping buy their kids shoes.

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Old 24-07-2015, 05:39 PM   #6
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

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Originally Posted by Evelon View Post
This seems to be a US of A related thread, amirite?
greece too...i think....and maybe spain....i'm not up to date in regards to the state of the international finance market. But my understanding is that its interelated via the trade of imported goods. As to how that effects the socio-economic status of people living in a different country is a whole different ballgame...due to the interelated complexities.

One idea is to have paper currency based off of a set constant...but that has been tried before. The whole too big to fail kinda thing is still a problem...or maybe it isn't i'm not that well read on this kinda subject which is why I'm asking the intelligent mods/users on this forum.

Relic answered my question with a documentary. As for the others. If they have any thoughts or ideas in regards to the state of the global economy then they are welcome to share.

If not then that's ok too.:shitstorm:

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Old 24-07-2015, 06:57 PM   #7
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

I'm a business student so this is kind of my thing
The whole "too big to fail" thing refers to the fact that most firms are in debt to many entities: other firms, the owners, the government, stockholders (technically also owners), bond holders, and more. If a big enough firm goes under, it takes a lot of debt that a lot of people planned on being paid back with it. Suddenly, if a few entities made the mistake of putting a large portion of their money on the line with that one firm, they can't pay back the debt that they, in turn, likely owe someone else, and the effect can ripple throughout the economy. If that happened to a large enough extent, investors (basically, the people who lent their money to the firm in the first place with the promise that it would be paid back, likely with interest) could lose faith in the system and decide that it's too risky to invest in anything, which would cause the current system to not work at all anymore. Which would be bad. So, rather than let that happen, the government sometimes chooses to help a major firm out so that it doesn't have to default on a large number of debts like that.
As far as how we're going to fix the national debt problem? Macro-economics (economics on a large scale, looking [usually] at at least an entire country) tells us that long run (decades in macro-economics) growth of an economy approaches a straight line with some slope x. During recessions, the slope is less than x, and during booms, it is greater, but the whole ends up equal to x. Many factors affect economic growth over time, and one of them is the aggregate demand. The U.S. has increased its aggregate demand since about the 80s by running a budget deficit, buying more things than it actually has money for, which artificially increases demand and helps the economy grow faster. Essentially, they have made the slope of economic growth greater than x for 30 years now, so eventually, we'll pay for that with economic growth of less than x for some time (either a lot all at once, or slowly over many decades). Why? We'll either have to reduce government spending, which would reduce the artificial demand we are now used to, or we have to raise taxes, which would reduce demand for goods and services throughout our economy since consumers would have less money left at the end of the day to buy stuff with.

A good book to get the basics of both micro and macro-economics down is "Naked Economics", it still applies in college-level stuff (we just have to deal with actual numbers), and it applies the knowledge to actual economic problems pretty relevant today, the debt crisis among them.
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Old 24-07-2015, 07:18 PM   #8
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by relic View Post
a lot of economics and banking is kind of pseudo science...
I didn't see this earlier, economics is actually considered a humanity (with philosophy, history, criminal justice, etc.) since it's a study of how people allocate limited resources to satisfy unlimited wants, at its core. It just happens to tell us a lot about what's going on in businesses, so we make use of it. But ultimately, if humanity fundamentally changes in some way, economics has to change to follow that, so it's not as solid a rule as other disciplines where a lot of math is used heavily (I'm looking at you, science and engineering).
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Old 24-07-2015, 09:23 PM   #9
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Kill everyone and let the cats run things.
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Old 24-07-2015, 10:20 PM   #10
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Noise View Post
I'm a business student so this is kind of my thing
The whole "too big to fail" thing refers to the fact that most firms are in debt to many entities: other firms, the owners, the government, stockholders (technically also owners), bond holders, and more. If a big enough firm goes under, it takes a lot of debt that a lot of people planned on being paid back with it. Suddenly, if a few entities made the mistake of putting a large portion of their money on the line with that one firm, they can't pay back the debt that they, in turn, likely owe someone else, and the effect can ripple throughout the economy. If that happened to a large enough extent, investors (basically, the people who lent their money to the firm in the first place with the promise that it would be paid back, likely with interest) could lose faith in the system and decide that it's too risky to invest in anything, which would cause the current system to not work at all anymore. Which would be bad. So, rather than let that happen, the government sometimes chooses to help a major firm out so that it doesn't have to default on a large number of debts like that.
As far as how we're going to fix the national debt problem? Macro-economics (economics on a large scale, looking [usually] at at least an entire country) tells us that long run (decades in macro-economics) growth of an economy approaches a straight line with some slope x. During recessions, the slope is less than x, and during booms, it is greater, but the whole ends up equal to x. Many factors affect economic growth over time, and one of them is the aggregate demand. The U.S. has increased its aggregate demand since about the 80s by running a budget deficit, buying more things than it actually has money for, which artificially increases demand and helps the economy grow faster. Essentially, they have made the slope of economic growth greater than x for 30 years now, so eventually, we'll pay for that with economic growth of less than x for some time (either a lot all at once, or slowly over many decades). Why? We'll either have to reduce government spending, which would reduce the artificial demand we are now used to, or we have to raise taxes, which would reduce demand for goods and services throughout our economy since consumers would have less money left at the end of the day to buy stuff with.
I'm having trouble focusing....did you address the problem of achieving growth when resources are limited

Quote:
A good book to get the basics of both micro and macro-economics down is "Naked Economics", it still applies in college-level stuff (we just have to deal with actual numbers), and it applies the knowledge to actual economic problems pretty relevant today, the debt crisis among them.
or is that question also addressed in the book of naked economics

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Old 24-07-2015, 10:33 PM   #11
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Noise View Post
I didn't see this earlier, economics is actually considered a humanity (with philosophy, history, criminal justice, etc.) since it's a study of how people allocate limited resources to satisfy unlimited wants, at its core. It just happens to tell us a lot about what's going on in businesses, so we make use of it. But ultimately, if humanity fundamentally changes in some way, economics has to change to follow that, so it's not as solid a rule as other disciplines where a lot of math is used heavily (I'm looking at you, science and engineering).
I was talking more about how all this "big debt" isn't really tangible and from what I understand that is one of the major problems with it. None of it is a straightforward IOU.






Come to think of it, having our current world financial system totally collapse and set back to 0 would be one quick way to stop all the damage we are doing to our planet...sure everything would more less go back to the dark ages but the people who survived would at least have a chance at rebuilding a resource reasonable society.

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Old 24-07-2015, 11:29 PM   #12
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

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Originally Posted by Br/ainfu+ked View Post
I'm having trouble focusing....did you address the problem of achieving growth when resources are limited
I don't remember if the book covers this issue directly, but I remember from class that there is an outer capacity any given economy can reach, and this can only be expanded by adding resources into the economy or by making more efficient use of the resources available to the economy. Usually, the latter occurs because of some technological breakthrough that makes manufacturing processes more efficient (such as being able to build a car of the same quality with half the steel). The former can occur through trade,discovery, or technological breakthroughs that allow us to get more natural resources from the earth we have access to (such as trading natural gas for copper, discovering a new source of copper, or getting copper from copper ore).
Of course, that only covers (in general) natural resources. There's also capital, human capital, entrepreneurial talent, and other resources, each made up of many components, to consider. The book I mentioned does go through all of those and explains them much better than I can, and (if you get a new enough version) will explain how America is doing right now in each department.
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Old 24-07-2015, 11:44 PM   #13
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

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Originally Posted by relic View Post
None of it is a straightforward IOU.
True that, (ironically) the safest investment you can make is in US bonds (that's US government debt). Even though the nation's in so much debt, we have never missed a payment, so anyone is willing to loan us money for pretty cheap. So we keep getting new loans to pay off the old ones, as near as I can tell (I will emphasize that that last sentence is speculation on my part). If we tried to do that, we'd be laughed right out of the bank, but the government does it every day because they've proven for decades that they can.
At this point, US bonds are almost an institution, we use the interest rates on those bonds to gauge short and long-term interest rates to figure out whether or not to make certain investments and what interest to charge consumers for their credit. It's crazy when you think about it, but then I went into business because I didn't want to think too hard.
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Old 24-07-2015, 11:52 PM   #14
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

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Originally Posted by White Noise View Post
I don't remember if the book covers this issue directly, but I remember from class that there is an outer capacity any given economy can reach, and this can only be expanded by adding resources into the economy or by making more efficient use of the resources available to the economy. Usually, the latter occurs because of some technological breakthrough that makes manufacturing processes more efficient (such as being able to build a car of the same quality with half the steel). The former can occur through trade,discovery, or technological breakthroughs that allow us to get more natural resources from the earth we have access to (such as trading natural gas for copper, discovering a new source of copper, or getting copper from copper ore).
Of course, that only covers (in general) natural resources. There's also capital, human capital, entrepreneurial talent, and other resources, each made up of many components, to consider. The book I mentioned does go through all of those and explains them much better than I can, and (if you get a new enough version) will explain how America is doing right now in each department.
Having quicker access to resources via technological does help solve the problem somewhat imo....I think the nail was hit on the head by suggesting the surviving progress documentary in regards to the financial debt crises.

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Old 25-07-2015, 02:06 AM   #15
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Print more money !
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Old 25-07-2015, 02:45 AM   #16
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Markets, money and what currency and product mean morph and change over time. 45 years ago credit was not a way of life. People saved up or borrowed money traditionally instead of brandishing a piece of plastic with every transition.

I think things evolve and morph and there is nothing we can do about it. In another 45 years what we know about markets and economy will be new and different from what we know. Things evolve and adapt as the situations change.

As far as the US goes I think our government and budget has become this huge thing that depends on all the players involved. Unfortunately a precedent has been set and I don't really foresee an end to spending more than what we can afford with the government we have. It's too late. It's big government that is a machine to keep it that way. Each party (Republican or Democrat) spends in their own way. In the end this time it will depend on how the world market responds, how the those who buy into the US debt respond and the future and stability of power.
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Old 25-07-2015, 12:46 PM   #17
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

nothing

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Old 25-07-2015, 12:53 PM   #18
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

Kill the creditor.
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Old 25-07-2015, 12:59 PM   #19
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

I'm in the dark:shitstorm:

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Old 25-07-2015, 03:14 PM   #20
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Re: What do we do about the debt crisis?

The only way out of this recession is to buy, buy, buy.








Anyone?

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Hello I am DJ Crisis! djcrisis Introduce Yourself 0 19-06-2012 10:08 AM
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