Chord progression and layering tracks
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Old 10-02-2018, 02:20 PM   #1
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Chord progression and layering tracks

Hi everyone I’m new to producing music and woundered if you have tips on layering tracks and following chord progression, eg what key should be used and so on. currently reading up on music theory for some guideline ....cheees ��

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Old 10-02-2018, 06:10 PM   #2
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

I struggled learning some basic theory for years until a friend (she has taught piano to all ages for most of her life) suggested I start with harmony/chords.

I'm not theory expert but I base everything I do on the chord progression(s). Melodies and bass lines don't stray far from the root notes.

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Old 10-02-2018, 07:58 PM   #3
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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follow the dots.

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Old 10-02-2018, 10:26 PM   #4
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

Thanks for reply , Iíll give that a try 😌
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:36 AM   #5
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

I probably know more about theory than the vast majority of folks on this forum (seriously not bragging, it’s like saying I have highest level black mage or something, who cares), and I’m kind of against learning theory unless you’re going to really dig deep into it.

I know this a strange opinion but listen. To reach the amount of theoretical knowledge that will lead to music that is equivalent to just using your ears, I think you would have get through the equivalent of 3 semesters of music theory in college. Learning how to make a scale or even harmonize the major scale isn’t going to do shit for you that you can’t do by farting around in the piano roll.

If you slavishly stick to some low level music theory rules you’re going to end up with some pretty boring stuff. Aphex Twin is a great example of why you shouldn’t. Just by using his ear, he was able to arrive at some harmonically interesting material. If he had stuck to music theory I and II stuff we would’ve missed out on so much.

Unless you really want to get serious about studying theory and analyzing music, my advice is to develope your ears. Listen to records and learn to sing all the notes in chords. Sing the bass lines. Sing some jazz solos. Get to where you can sing arpeggios of chord progressions from songs you know without even having to hear that song.

Other than that, just try to be aware of when a song uses a “big” chord change (goes from one chord to another that sounds kind of weird and unrelated) and when you are hearing a “small” chord change (to a chord that sounds very not weird and related). That’s one of the defining features of a song form. When does it change harmonically.

Ok hope that rambling helps.

Last edited by mnkvolcno; 11-02-2018 at 05:40 AM..

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Old 11-02-2018, 03:37 AM   #6
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

One more thing, try to sin a melody, baseline, or even the top note in a chord progression before you write anything. Try to write down what comes into your mind. That is “true” composition.

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Old 11-02-2018, 12:46 PM   #7
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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Originally Posted by mnkvolcno View Post
seriously not bragging
Instead of writing these three words, you could have provided us a link to your music.

Not trying to be hostile here, but these are pretty massive and conflicting claims.

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Old 11-02-2018, 05:03 PM   #8
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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Originally Posted by -Agu- View Post
Instead of writing these three words, you could have provided us a link to your music.

Not trying to be hostile here, but these are pretty massive and conflicting claims.
What would my music prove about knowing a lot of music theory?

Anyway.. the reason I said that is because I see a lot of talk about music theory on this site, but I have rarely if ever seen a post by someone who really knows a lot about it. I’m sure there are a handful of us on here. But seriously, it’s nothing to brag about. I just think that often it’s the blind leading the blind in this area.

Last edited by mnkvolcno; 11-02-2018 at 05:11 PM..

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Old 11-02-2018, 06:11 PM   #9
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

Thanks ,I appreciate all the advice that you have given I will defo try the examples you have given... everyday is a school day. Iíll try I listen more by ear and use the piano roll as suggested 👍😌
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:16 PM   #10
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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Originally Posted by Iyashi Sound View Post
This is indeed a strange opinion.

It's like saying that learning spelling and grammar will somehow make you a boring writer.

Music theory is primarily a language that allows you to communicate musical ideas verbally. Not a "set of rules" that tells you what to do, - but something that'll allow you to understand such rules, should you wish to do so.

Don't blame music theory for your own lack of imagination.
Hmm.. my lack of imagination.. Ok. Whatever that means.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

If you write a song using only chords in the first position on a guitar, you might be messing around and decide that you like the sound of F major going to E major (in the key of E). You could mess around and throw some other chords together and come up with an interesting tune.

Now, if you are using the "paint by numbers" approach that I so frequently see producers trying to use, and stuck to chords that fit in a key, you would never arrive at this sound. If you were in a college course, you wouldn't get to this sound until third semester when you studied the "neapolitan chord". And this is because typically colleges teach theory roughly in the order which it came about it western classical music.

Yes I agree with you that theory is not a set of rules, but a system of labeling concepts so that we can communicate them.. not only communicate them to others, but more easily incorporate musical ideas in to our own thought processes. But from what I observe, this rarely how people learn a little bit of theory on the internet view it. I think it takes a fair amount of study before you get to a point where you can understand how to use the theory.

Sorry to single you out relic but, what you said is a perfect example of what i'm talking about..

"I'm not theory expert but I base everything I do on the chord progression(s). Melodies and bass lines don't stray far from the root notes."

This would be a situation where I feel confident that you are probably unneccesarily limiting yourself by doing this. Not sure of the specifics, but again.. something as simple as going from C major to F minor is going to be off limits to you unless you understand "modal mixture".. not a complicated concept, just something that takes a while to arrive at via study.

a classic track that employed modal mixture without knowing it:

i guess studying theory is fine even if you don't get to deep. I would just try to forget about it when you make music. DAWs make it so easy to explore remote harmonic concepts, it would be a shame to miss out on them because you are sticking to rules.

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Old 11-02-2018, 09:04 PM   #11
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

So you're basically saying: "Unless you're at my level, it's better just to ignore it".

It's the height of arrogance.

In my opinion, instead of discouraging a newcomer like this, flailing your "vast knowledge" around like a simpleton, you should be encouraging them in their studies!

Like maybe pointing at the microtonal inventions of Ligeti, the study of uneven metres in Balkan folk music or the harmonic progressions in Bach's overtures, - but instead you actually suggest just pressing random notes, - to sing and "use your ears", like no one ever thought of that. Oh teach us about music, wise master!

I don't know what made you all bitter and uptight like this, but you seriously need to lighten up. Maybe even take up your own studies again. After all, the "I" in IDM isn't short for "ignorant".
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Old 11-02-2018, 10:15 PM   #12
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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Originally Posted by Iyashi Sound View Post
So you're basically saying: "Unless you're at my level, it's better just to ignore it".

It's the height of arrogance.

In my opinion, instead of discouraging a newcomer like this, flailing your "vast knowledge" around like a simpleton, you should be encouraging them in their studies!

Like maybe pointing at the microtonal inventions of Ligeti, the study of uneven metres in Balkan folk music or the harmonic progressions in Bach's overtures, - but instead you actually suggest just pressing random notes, - to sing and "use your ears", like no one ever thought of that. Oh teach us about music, wise master!

I don't know what made you all bitter and uptight like this, but you seriously need to lighten up. Maybe even take up your own studies again. After all, the "I" in IDM isn't short for "ignorant".
Ok.. Iím not going to address your personal attacks, not exactly sure why youíre taking this so personally, but I will clarify my point which you seem set on twisting around.

Just to recap.. I said that I donít think itís worth it to study theory UNLESS you are prepared to put in a fair amount of study. Otherwise, I think you will get better results by training your ears. I maintain this point. Not sure with where you got ďmashing random keysĒ from, because Iím actually suggesting that you develope your inner voice by singing music that you hear, and trying to write out things that you hear in your head rather than just randomly poking around. If you think Iím some egomaniac for suggesting this thatís fine with me.

Thatís fine if you disagree but you donít have to be a dick about it. You could try actually referring to a specific thing I said rather than writing out paragraph of insults. Iím literally just trying to help people avoid a trap that Iíve seen folks fall into. Maybe Iím wrong but thatís just my opinion. Have a nice day.

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Old 11-02-2018, 10:23 PM   #13
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

One more thing.. I can understand why comment about knowing more music theory or whatever would irk some people. But I just want to say that to me, music theory is nothing special. Tons of my favorite music was made by people with very very limited theory knowledge. I’m a jazz musician so I kind of have to know music theory to survive, but I don’t think it’s necessary for a lot of things. I just have not run into many folks around here who happened to have studied theory, that’s all I was trying to point out.

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Old 12-02-2018, 12:11 AM   #14
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

By labelling "the vast majority of folks on this forum" as people who know less about music than you, you belittled everyone here.

Did you expect us to just quietly accept that?

Most "folks" here don't wave our credentials around, but that doesn't mean we don't have any.

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Old 12-02-2018, 12:29 AM   #15
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iyashi Sound View Post
By labelling "the vast majority of folks on this forum" as people who know less about music than you, you belittled everyone here.

Did you expect us to just quietly accept that?

Most "folks" here don't wave our credentials around, but that doesn't mean we don't have any.
Alright, I apologize for wording it that way. Didnít intend to offend anyone. This is not a pissing contest for me.

Iím sure there are people on here whoíve studied more theory than i have, it was a dumb thing to mention and irrelevant. I meant it more as ďhey I know a lot of theory and itís not may not be as useful as another approachĒ

PS Iím from the southern US and ďfolksĒ is a word that people use around here. *shrug*
I think youíve worn out your moral high ground with petty insults. You can stop now.

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Old 12-02-2018, 12:37 AM   #16
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

I accept your apology, - and in turn apologise for being a dick about it.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:39 AM   #17
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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I accept your apology, - and in turn apologise for being a dick about it.
Cool. Seriously.

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Old 12-02-2018, 01:17 AM   #18
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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What would my music prove about knowing a lot of music theory?
Your first post didn't have any practical examples etc. to demonstrate your knowledge, so music would have added a bit of credibility to it. Your later posts pretty much fixed it, but the first post could have been basically written by anyone.

It still just seems so weird mindset to me however. As if there wouldn't be any middle ground between being completely clueless and being an expert. Like sure, maybe someone doesn't go from F major to E major because it's "off limits" in his mind, but the same person is most likely able to write tunes on his guitar because of his basic knowledge of major/minor scales, circle of fifths, power chords, 7ths etc. At some point, the person will learn to stop being obsessed with "rules", even if he doesn't study more of the theory. He will just acknowledge that he doesn't know the reason for everything.

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Old 12-02-2018, 02:36 AM   #19
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

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Originally Posted by -Agu- View Post
Your first post didn't have any practical examples etc. to demonstrate your knowledge, so music would have added a bit of credibility to it. Your later posts pretty much fixed it, but the first post could have been basically written by anyone.

It still just seems so weird mindset to me however. As if there wouldn't be any middle ground between being completely clueless and being an expert. Like sure, maybe someone doesn't go from F major to E major because it's "off limits" in his mind, but the same person is most likely able to write tunes on his guitar because of his basic knowledge of major/minor scales, circle of fifths, power chords, 7ths etc. At some point, the person will learn to stop being obsessed with "rules", even if he doesn't study more of the theory. He will just acknowledge that he doesn't know the reason for everything.
Indeed. Good points all around. I don't disagree with you. I'm feeling inclined towards backing off on the rigidity of my initial post.

I think that i've frequently encountered a certain attitude in musicians that's maybe caused me to go a bit overboard with my whole "screw theory" thing. A lot of musicans i've encountered have some kind of inferiority complex about theory.. for lack of a better word. Like they seem to think they'll never be able to write the music they want unless they learn a bunch of theory. For some things, this is true. If you want to write a symphony or arrange for a choir. But then I find out that a lot of these people are just wanting to make a track that has a four chord riff that basically repeats the whole time and maybe has a couple of parts where it stays on one chord for a long time. So for these people, I feel like it would just be more worth their time to train their ears a bit. Kind of like I think it might not be worth a folk musician's time to analyze bach chorals.


I guess better advice than "don't learn theory" would be, "learn theory, but when you are making music, use your ear as much as possible, and if your ears tell you to do something that doesn't make theoretical sense, do it anyway."

The other reason I take my stance is because I see people neglecting training their ears so often. I really think that being able SING things is by far the most important thing. And by that I mean, listen to some bach, and learn to sing each individual part. It would very challenging, and you would probably have to slow it down considerably, but I feel that if you spent 50 hours doing this vs 50 hours studying theory, you might be in a much better place to create some cool music. When you learn to sing things you internalize it in a deep way, and once it's deep in your mind, it will mingle with all the music you've heard and pop back out in the form of an idea when you are going for a jog or scooping the litter box.

I did think of a caveat that i should clarify. If you want to actually learn an instrument, I take it back to some extent. I was referring mostly to wanking around in the piano roll. But if you want to learn to play the keyboard, yes.. you are going to need to learn theory. But I suppose even then, you could just learn key signatures, how to construct chords and scales and then voice leading (pretty important but also pretty easy to get the gist of) and take it from there. May not be worth necessary to delve in to functional harmony.

I reckon everything i'm saying is dependent on what you're trying to accomplish. I think ideally you should have a music teacher who can access where you are and where you want to go, and then lay out some things you will need to know in order to get there.

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Old 12-02-2018, 04:39 AM   #20
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Re: Chord progression and layering tracks

Man, if it weren't for drop C I'd never get laid.

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