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Ambient / Downtempo Discussion of music similar to Brian Eno, Sigur Rs, FSOL, The Orb, Biosphere.

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Old 17-08-2013, 08:20 PM   #21
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by AsylumSeaker View Post
Has anyone on this forum ever played this game before?
What "game" exactly are you going on about? A lot of us just write music.

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Old 17-08-2013, 10:04 PM   #22
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

I think he means a genre-name based musical hilarity game

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Old 17-08-2013, 11:07 PM   #23
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by mookster View Post
I think he means a genre-name based musical hilarity game
In that case, a lot of us just write music. That's all a musician should be expected to do, use music theory to make music. We've seen so many silly "genres" come and go here, and while I'm not Anti-Genre (for instance, I like electronic music) as the OP has stated, I simply think it's ridiculous and redundant to keep creating subgenre after subgenre just to "make history", "make a point", or to sell that point.

And for the record, "Techno" simply referred to music made exclusively with emerging "Technology". Genre's aren't always pointless, and the term "Progressive" referred to the merging of all sorts of genres and styles through musical progression. However, we're BEYOND the "Progressive" era because of the way technology allows us to do pretty much whatever the hell we want with our music, technique and genre wise.

We have progressed.

However, that doesn't mean that every new combination of technique and genre should become something of it's own, (hence the term "Progressive" as an umbrella for that sort of sub-categorization) because as the OP agrees: Everything is based off some sort of influence. I feel that as a group of artists, and philosophers, we should get out of the habit of categorizing and nit picking about our music, because there is only: Music.

That is my philosophy, and people don't agree (for some reason). There is only Music. Musicians should be allowed and able to do whatever they want, and not have to be expected to live up to a standard. It's much like the old adage about homosexuality "It is something that can be used to describe me, but it's not what makes me who I am." There is no formula that homosexuals need to follow to be homosexual, as much as people want to take it apart and nit pick and try and find "Historical Evidence" of "Homosexual Behaviours"...

So can we just ignore all this sub-categorization sub-genre bullshit and just focus on creating Music? Can we not turn it into a social issue?

I know OP you're going to have a shit fit about this post, and you're probably not going to agree, and you're probably going to want to pick apart every little thing I've said here and turn it into something negative, but can you please not? I get it, you don't agree. I'm not trying to force you to.

That being said, I have nothing against this sound, am a HUGE fan of artists like VHS Head and Boreal Network, and a lot my own music tends to follow this same philosophy, but that's all I see it as: Music.

EDIT: Also, if you haven't noticed yet. I take Music kind of seriously. Not just a fucking game.


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Old 17-08-2013, 11:18 PM   #24
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

No I simply meant has anyone made up ridiculous genre tags as satirical comment on subgenre proliferation, as ms_ did on the previous page. My comment was sarcasm as I know how how common that game is, common to the point of cliche.
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:51 PM   #25
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by Broton42 View Post
I know OP you're going to have a shit fit about this post, and you're probably not going to agree, and you're probably going to want to pick apart every little thing I've said here and turn it into something negative, but can you please not? I get it, you don't agree. I'm not trying to force you to.
I'm not having a shit fit, I'm simply presenting my perspective as you have. It's my thread ffs, you came into it with your passive aggression and offhand dismissal, to which I responded with measured conversational posts. I'm happy to read and respond to whatever, it's up to you if you want to continue the conversation or not.

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Originally Posted by Broton42 View Post
In that case, a lot of us just write music. That's all a musician should be expected to do, use music theory to make music.

...

I feel that as a group of artists, and philosophers, we should get out of the habit of categorizing and nit picking about our music, because there is only: Music.

...

So can we just ignore all this sub-categorization sub-genre bullshit and just focus on creating Music? Can we not turn it into a social issue?
Firstly, I don't expect anyone to fit into any box. If someone thinks of their job as a musician as just writing music, then that's purely up to them.

But personally I won't accept that limitation on what I do. I have different expectations on myself as an artist, it's gotta be about more than putting out product. The creative process doesn't take place in a vacuum, it's my life and my experience of the world that goes into it, and if I'm not thinking about and talking about that experience in the art context then I don't feel I'm covering all the most interesting angles available to me as an artist.

For me it is a social issue, it's intrinsicly social. One can't put art into the world without some sort of social reaction, and so to do so without social conscience involved is, at the very, least missing out on an opportunity to extend one's art into the social dimension. At the worst it's socially irresponsible.

Art doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even when a piece of art or a song is created as a self-contained object with no supporting commentary or concept, it still exists for the audience as part of a wider experience, no piece of which can be had on its own. Why not extend one's creativity out beyond that object and into the social world in which that object must be presented? The engineering of concepts and language to support or discuss art is itself a very rewarding and interesting ART form - not something academic and separate from art - and it takes the same sort of practise and knowledge and inspiration as music does. I don't see anything about this that reduces the integrity or seriousness of the art, it only adds.

We can break the fourth wall with music by entering into discourse with each other and the audience, letting our language become an extension of the creative process and our music become part of a multimedia experience. I'm not saying that everyone should do it this way, people can do whatever they want. I simply think it's an interesting and valid way to do things, and that its an underrated way. That's why I'm writing this up, not to force it on anyone, but simply because I'm interested in conversation about it.
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Old 18-08-2013, 12:14 AM   #26
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by AsylumSeaker View Post
Firstly, I don't expect anyone to fit into any box. If someone thinks of their job as a musician as just writing music, then that's purely up to them.

But personally I won't accept that limitation on what I do. I have different expectations on myself as an artist, it's gotta be about more than putting out product. The creative process doesn't take place in a vacuum, it's my life and my experience of the world that goes into it, and if I'm not thinking about and talking about that experience in the art context then I don't feel I'm covering all the most interesting angles available to me as an artist.

For me it is a social issue, it's intrinsicly social. One can't put art into the world without some sort of social reaction, and so to do so without social conscience involved is, at the very, least missing out on an opportunity to extend one's art into the social dimension. At the worst it's socially irresponsible.

Art doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even when a piece of art or a song is created as a self-contained object with no supporting commentary or concept, it still exists for the audience as part of a wider experience, no piece of which can be had on its own. Why not extend one's creativity out beyond that object and into the social world in which that object must be presented? The engineering of concepts and language to support or discuss art is itself a very rewarding and interesting ART form - not something academic and separate from art - and it takes the same sort of practise and knowledge and inspiration as music does. I don't see anything about this that reduces the integrity or seriousness of the art, it only adds.

We can break the fourth wall with music by entering into discourse with each other and the audience, letting our language become an extension of the creative process and our music become part of a multimedia experience. I'm not saying that everyone should do it this way, people can do whatever they want. I simply think it's an interesting and valid way to do things, and that its an underrated way. That's why I'm writing this up, not to force it on anyone, but simply because I'm interested in conversation about it.
That's a lot of big flowery words that mean approximately nothing. We're not labeling things with genres, we're letting our language become an extension of the creative process and our music become part of a multimedia experience. All I'm hearing is "I really, really want to sound more intelligent and mature than the person I'm arguing with."

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There is a time when the world of music opens itself up to you and you dive right into great unknowns, incredible techniques and emotionally captivating electronic music. And after that, there is stuff like Pop EDM.
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Old 18-08-2013, 12:54 AM   #27
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

All the words are ordinary words. What was difficult - Extension? Multimedia? Experience? I don't get it. English, motherfucker.
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Old 18-08-2013, 01:09 AM   #28
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by AsylumSeaker View Post
All the words are ordinary words. What was difficult - Extension? Multimedia? Experience? I don't get it. English, motherfucker.
None of the individual words were that difficult. It's just that the way you combine them makes you sound like an unbearably pretentious art student.

But I suppose the real question I have is why does "extend[ing] one's creativity out beyond that object and into the social world in which that object must be presented?" necessitate the use of genre labels? I don't really see how your dense wall-of-text actually countered Broton's argument in any meaningful way. There's a lot of intelligence in what you're saying, but it just doesn't really explain how genre pigeonholing is an essential way to "let our language become an extension of the creative process." We're simply arguing that silly words like "vaporwave" and "mallsoft" aren't really necessary to interact with and discuss music.

Last edited by Spyderbyte; 18-08-2013 at 01:24 AM..

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broton42 View Post
There is a time when the world of music opens itself up to you and you dive right into great unknowns, incredible techniques and emotionally captivating electronic music. And after that, there is stuff like Pop EDM.
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Old 18-08-2013, 04:24 AM   #29
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Re: Talkin bout vaporwave

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Originally Posted by AsylumSeaker View Post
I don't know what's worse.. genre nazism or anti-genre nazism.
Oops. I thought this was another thread for some reason when I posted that, not its own thread. I'm gay.
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Old 18-08-2013, 07:44 AM   #30
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by Spyderbyte View Post
None of the individual words were that difficult. It's just that the way you combine them makes you sound like an unbearably pretentious art student.
I'm doing my best to convey some ideas I feel are important. I'm not exactly hammering my words into your ear with a mallet, you are free to stop reading at any point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderbyte View Post
But I suppose the real question I have is why does "extend[ing] one's creativity out beyond that object and into the social world in which that object must be presented?" necessitate the use of genre labels? I don't really see how your dense wall-of-text actually countered Broton's argument in any meaningful way. There's a lot of intelligence in what you're saying, but it just doesn't really explain how genre pigeonholing is an essential way to "let our language become an extension of the creative process." We're simply arguing that silly words like "vaporwave" and "mallsoft" aren't really necessary to interact with and discuss music.
If you read what I've written you'd see that I'm resistant to pigeonholing.

Genre tags don't need to be universal or have objective meaning, they only need to carry provisional meaning shared by people who want to use them in conversation. Genre tags don't need to be about asserting the boundaries of what a style can and can't do. I find it far more interesting to use them to label patterns detected in different pieces of music. Between two people who've followed vaporwave and the discourse surrounding it, the term isn't meaningless or an attempt at pigeonholing but a practical signifier. It allows a set of concepts to be packaged into a single term so that that set can be referenced without describing it in its entirety every time.

This makes genre tagging a very useful tool in the discussion of music. Importantly it extends into thinking about music and in thinking about ones own music practise. There's nothing limiting about it, it's not about setting up walls in your mind beyond which you're not allowed to take your sounds any more. It's more about having a sort of map of what's going on, something that helps with your awareness of the social / musical landscape and consequently your awareness of how your own music relates to or references or challenges that landscape.

If you don't like the term vaporwave then you can use something else. That's absolutely fine, and I encourage it. So long as you can use a word to enhance your conversation, even a made-up word, I think you should do so. It's not that hard to create provisional terms like this, particularly if you're only using it with one or a couple of people - you just describe what the word means and go ahead and start using it. Is there really a problem with that? Who's it hurting? And if it's that you don't even want to talk about the music to which the term refers to, what are you doing here?

I pity the fool who uses genre tags to segregate or pigeonhole music. The only place that might be useful is in a cd rack, not so much in discussing music. I think genre tags should be used freely, creatively, intuitively, and without worrying that you're gunna get something wrong. For example, I might describe BoC variously as hip hop, trip hop, ambient, idm, downtempo, cafe music, or even vaporwave, depending on who I'm talking to or what aspect of the music I'm trying to highlight. None of these terms carry absolute meaning, but they can be relied on to convey a degree of information to people who have previous experience with the terms.

All words should be understood at all times to be essentially provisional and interpretive. They only have significance once it is established between participants in a conversation what that significance is. The dictionary does this for most words, but there are an infinite number that aren't in the dictionary but are only waiting to be established local to conversations where they might come in handy. We can take control of language like that, we don't need to stick to the standard set.

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Old 19-08-2013, 03:28 AM   #31
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

There's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...there's nobody here...

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Old 19-08-2013, 04:05 AM   #32
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by Broton42 View Post
In that case, a lot of us just write music. That's all a musician should be expected to do, use music theory to make music. We've seen so many silly "genres" come and go here, and while I'm not Anti-Genre (for instance, I like electronic music) as the OP has stated, I simply think it's ridiculous and redundant to keep creating subgenre after subgenre just to "make history", "make a point", or to sell that point.

And for the record, "Techno" simply referred to music made exclusively with emerging "Technology". Genre's aren't always pointless, and the term "Progressive" referred to the merging of all sorts of genres and styles through musical progression. However, we're BEYOND the "Progressive" era because of the way technology allows us to do pretty much whatever the hell we want with our music, technique and genre wise.

We have progressed.

However, that doesn't mean that every new combination of technique and genre should become something of it's own, (hence the term "Progressive" as an umbrella for that sort of sub-categorization) because as the OP agrees: Everything is based off some sort of influence. I feel that as a group of artists, and philosophers, we should get out of the habit of categorizing and nit picking about our music, because there is only: Music.

That is my philosophy, and people don't agree (for some reason). There is only Music. Musicians should be allowed and able to do whatever they want, and not have to be expected to live up to a standard. It's much like the old adage about homosexuality "It is something that can be used to describe me, but it's not what makes me who I am." There is no formula that homosexuals need to follow to be homosexual, as much as people want to take it apart and nit pick and try and find "Historical Evidence" of "Homosexual Behaviours"...

So can we just ignore all this sub-categorization sub-genre bullshit and just focus on creating Music? Can we not turn it into a social issue?

I know OP you're going to have a shit fit about this post, and you're probably not going to agree, and you're probably going to want to pick apart every little thing I've said here and turn it into something negative, but can you please not? I get it, you don't agree. I'm not trying to force you to.

That being said, I have nothing against this sound, am a HUGE fan of artists like VHS Head and Boreal Network, and a lot my own music tends to follow this same philosophy, but that's all I see it as: Music.

EDIT: Also, if you haven't noticed yet. I take Music kind of seriously. Not just a fucking game.

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+ a fucking million. I'm so fucking sick of art as politics. Very much because I'm sick of politics. Burn it down. Let's just be human and just create. Everything else is stupid fucking masturbation. Academic discussion is a burden, and that which separates, divides and cause conflict for the sake of conflict (or argument for the sake of argument) with little productive end except to continue the careers of useless assholes that can't create themselves. The visceral, subjective experience of art is more important than academic human mouth feces.

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Old 19-08-2013, 04:19 AM   #33
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumSeaker View Post
If you read what I've written you'd see that I'm resistant to pigeonholing.

Genre tags don't need to be universal or have objective meaning, they only need to carry provisional meaning shared by people who want to use them in conversation. Genre tags don't need to be about asserting the boundaries of what a style can and can't do. I find it far more interesting to use them to label patterns detected in different pieces of music. Between two people who've followed vaporwave and the discourse surrounding it, the term isn't meaningless or an attempt at pigeonholing but a practical signifier. It allows a set of concepts to be packaged into a single term so that that set can be referenced without describing it in its entirety every time.

This makes genre tagging a very useful tool in the discussion of music. Importantly it extends into thinking about music and in thinking about ones own music practise. There's nothing limiting about it, it's not about setting up walls in your mind beyond which you're not allowed to take your sounds any more. It's more about having a sort of map of what's going on, something that helps with your awareness of the social / musical landscape and consequently your awareness of how your own music relates to or references or challenges that landscape.

If you don't like the term vaporwave then you can use something else. That's absolutely fine, and I encourage it. So long as you can use a word to enhance your conversation, even a made-up word, I think you should do so. It's not that hard to create provisional terms like this, particularly if you're only using it with one or a couple of people - you just describe what the word means and go ahead and start using it. Is there really a problem with that? Who's it hurting? And if it's that you don't even want to talk about the music to which the term refers to, what are you doing here?

I pity the fool who uses genre tags to segregate or pigeonhole music. The only place that might be useful is in a cd rack, not so much in discussing music. I think genre tags should be used freely, creatively, intuitively, and without worrying that you're gunna get something wrong. For example, I might describe BoC variously as hip hop, trip hop, ambient, idm, downtempo, cafe music, or even vaporwave, depending on who I'm talking to or what aspect of the music I'm trying to highlight. None of these terms carry absolute meaning, but they can be relied on to convey a degree of information to people who have previous experience with the terms.

All words should be understood at all times to be essentially provisional and interpretive. They only have significance once it is established between participants in a conversation what that significance is. The dictionary does this for most words, but there are an infinite number that aren't in the dictionary but are only waiting to be established local to conversations where they might come in handy. We can take control of language like that, we don't need to stick to the standard set.
You've defended your point extremely well. I have to agree that genres are a convenient and useful way to group and discuss music.

The problem Broton is referring to arises is when the artist, not the listener, declares "I want to create X genre music" and then ends up confining his own art.

There's nothing wrong with viewers labeling music, it's just when an artist feels pressured to label his own music, it can confine his art. That's where genre-tagging becomes an issue, and something we grow to dislike as composers.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broton42 View Post
There is a time when the world of music opens itself up to you and you dive right into great unknowns, incredible techniques and emotionally captivating electronic music. And after that, there is stuff like Pop EDM.
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Old 19-08-2013, 04:41 AM   #34
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

Has anyone here tried to make a vaporwave track? I can't get enough of this shit, but I haven't been so inspired to try it myself, yet.

Also, cue Prismcorp videos
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Old 19-08-2013, 10:50 AM   #35
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by Spyderbyte View Post
You've defended your point extremely well. I have to agree that genres are a convenient and useful way to group and discuss music.

The problem Broton is referring to arises is when the artist, not the listener, declares "I want to create X genre music" and then ends up confining his own art.

There's nothing wrong with viewers labeling music, it's just when an artist feels pressured to label his own music, it can confine his art. That's where genre-tagging becomes an issue, and something we grow to dislike as composers.
Well, thanks and I agree that artists can surely get bogged down in whether their music is X genre or not.. but, I do think that artists can themselves use genre tags to think about their own music without being restrictive of themselves, and I find it really useful myself. Sometimes I get convoluted and write too much and I guess I fail to make my point clear.

Last edited by AsylumSeaker; 19-08-2013 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 19-08-2013, 10:56 AM   #36
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

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Originally Posted by Kvlt O))) View Post
Has anyone here tried to make a vaporwave track? I can't get enough of this shit, but I haven't been so inspired to try it myself, yet.
I did this:



Which I dunno if it would really be recognised as vaporwave, but I was inspired by listening to vaporwave stuff before I made it.

I also recorded on tape half an hour of myself playing the new sim city, and my tascam tape mixer has this awesome pitch down capability so I did that on the sim city recording, got a bit blazed, and man did it turn into a hell of a weird soundscape. Full of those crisp little engineered sounds maxis likes to use, buildings exploding, cars rushing by, people talking in that sims mumbo-jumbo, and all backed by utterly unchallenging precision mood music slowed down to a serene bassy crawl.
I listened to it again not blazed and it wasn't as mindblowing, but I think with some effects and rearrangement I could turn it into something..

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Old 14-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #38
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Re: Vaporwave

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Originally Posted by Kvlt O))) View Post
Kind of surprised we don't have a genre thread dedicated to best music in the world yet. Now we do.
Lol, we did and you'd even posted in it.
Merged.
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Old 14-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #39
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

Oh wow. It wasn't deleted, it just has a 'u' in it :p
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Old 21-04-2014, 10:18 PM   #40
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Re: Talkin bout vapourwave

Synthwave got merged with vaporwave? So much for plunderphonics

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