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Old 22-04-2018, 01:40 PM   #1
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Long term backup medium

Hi!

Projectfiles:
I'd like to know what backup Medium you would recommend for long term storage. CD-R has a to small capacity for usual projects (10-40 GB Ableton Projec +, Mashine Project + Samples). Bluray maybe, but I read once, it is not suitable for 20+ years. Harddisks also. Maybe SSD.

Song masters:
Analog tape maybe? DAT, but digital errors add from time to time, because of the magnetic field of the tape.
Or more pragmatic: use CD-Rs, but replicate them after 5 years onto new disks.

Last edited by Plague; 22-04-2018 at 04:46 PM..

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Old 22-04-2018, 04:04 PM   #2
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Re: Long term backup medium

Honestly I just use HDD. Cheap, huge, and fast enough these days. I just make sure to have multiple backup drives of everything.

And I've got drives from 15 years ago when I was a kid that still work fine lol. Of course I continually upgrade and backup to newer/bigger drives.

Storing the drives properly helps of course.

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Old 22-04-2018, 04:15 PM   #3
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Re: Long term backup medium

For long term archival, optical (CD/DVD/Bluray/etc) is the most economical. Properly stored, current estimates suggest they can last for 30-100 years, with Bluray having a longer shelf life than DVD. Bluray is becoming fairly standard in data archival and I expect it to be supported for years. Regular HTL BD-Rs are fine, but if you want to spend the money, M-Discs are actual archival quality disks that are supposed to last 1000 years.

LTO tape is also very stable, but tends to be more expensive for consumers and harder to store. Tape tends to be a better option at scale.

If you store on any kind of hard drive, you need to refresh the data every couple years by recopying it. Studies show a loss of ~1% magnetic strength per year in optimal conditions. There's also actual hardware failure to worry about: motors, actuators, etc. Given the time, effort, physical size and cost of maintaining drives for archival, I'd just use Bluray instead.

Analog tape is a great bet as it's easy to read and is stable over long periods if stored correctly. It's just expensive and requires equipment that's not always easy to find. If you have access to analog recording, it's not a bad idea.

I think DAT combines all the worst aspects of the above - it's uncommon, getting expensive, isn't particularly stable, and doesn't have any kind of use case today meaning companies aren't interested in supporting the platform. I'd avoid.

tl;dr - Bluray's probably the best bet for home use.

As a side note, I'd also look into archiving the data itself using something like zip or rar, and then generate [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
files, which will allow you to reconstruct bad data. It's a well known, well supported and widely used data archival tool that will add an additional layer of protection for not a lot of space.

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Old 22-04-2018, 04:49 PM   #4
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Re: Long term backup medium

Do an HDD, cloud and disc backup of your most important, irreplaceable shit. Use a new HDD every 5-7 years, etc. I always trust the 3-way method, but everything dies eventually.

It also helps to learn what's irreplaceable and what you could just technically make again. If you want to save everything forever, get ready to start making backups for the rest of your life.

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Old 22-04-2018, 04:51 PM   #5
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Re: Long term backup medium

Thank you both for your input. I will go with BD-R, because I have a bluray-writer already. I thought the estimated lifetime is much more worse, because I did backups in 2001 on CD-RW and some of that disks throw read/write errors all the time. Bad surprise!

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Old 22-04-2018, 05:48 PM   #6
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Re: Long term backup medium

I use multiple cloud backups, including a commercial provider of backup solutions.
I have had good experiences with RAID systems, too.

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Old 22-04-2018, 05:50 PM   #7
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Re: Long term backup medium

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Originally Posted by liquid_air View Post
I use multiple cloud backups, including a commercial provider of backup solutions.
I have had good experiences with RAID systems, too.
I think that's cool for touring, when a HD with backing tracks get lost or stolen. I have that in mind.

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Old 22-04-2018, 06:10 PM   #8
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Re: Long term backup medium

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I think that's cool for touring, when a HD with backing tracks get lost or stolen. I have that in mind.
In that setting, you’re likely better off carrying a slim SSD on you. SSDs eliminate the mechanical stress that can contribute to disc failure.

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Old 22-04-2018, 06:27 PM   #9
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Re: Long term backup medium

I don't consider cloud storage as archival. It's a service business in it's infancy that has continuously changing terms of service, pricing schemes and availability. These things close or change as often as they appear. Even Microsoft, who is really, really good at business modelling, has had major stutter steps with Azure and cloud storage. As someone who has almost 6TB of personal data stored offsite and who spends half the day at work on cloud intergrations, I'm a fan of the idea in the short term. I just don't trust that the data you put on Google or S3 or wherever will be there in 20 years. If you just want to make sure it's there in a month, that's a different story.

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Old 22-04-2018, 07:38 PM   #10
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Re: Long term backup medium

Agreed with Artificer about cloud storage.


Shame those holographic discs never came to fruition. I remember reading ages ago that they were supposed to store something like 5 TB per disc!

Anyway it will be interesting to see what the successor to current blu-ray tech brings to the table.

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Old 23-04-2018, 06:00 AM   #11
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Re: Long term backup medium

slightly off topic.... any one have an elegant solution for continuously backing up ones dropbox to a physical drive?

I use DB for loads of work stuff and am starting to get paranoid. I have half of it synced with my laptop so thats good but "deep storage" isnt backed up anywhere but DB and well... im one of those with little faith.

i should also include that my dayjob is touring and i spend about half of the year travelling, its freelance work and I have LARGE sessions that i need access to for clients that I cant just host on my laptop or... tote around more external HDs than I already do.

I've considered setting up an older comp (macbook, i have a ton of old ones i have refurbed) w an external drive that lives at home and is on a hardline LAN connection. this comp would have an external HD be its native Dropbox destination....

but at that point wouldn't it just make more sense to fuck off dropbox and have a FTP sort of solution? Sure, Dropbox makes it easy to collab or share, but I COULD just use FTP for that sort of functionality... but i'd lose the cloud storage component..


sorry im rambling. long day, but this is a topic i consider a lot...

Last edited by chasedobson; 23-04-2018 at 06:05 AM..

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Old 23-04-2018, 09:08 AM   #12
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Re: Long term backup medium

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasedobson View Post
slightly off topic.... any one have an elegant solution for continuously backing up ones dropbox to a physical drive?

I use DB for loads of work stuff and am starting to get paranoid. I have half of it synced with my laptop so thats good but "deep storage" isnt backed up anywhere but DB and well... im one of those with little faith.

i should also include that my dayjob is touring and i spend about half of the year travelling, its freelance work and I have LARGE sessions that i need access to for clients that I cant just host on my laptop or... tote around more external HDs than I already do.

I've considered setting up an older comp (macbook, i have a ton of old ones i have refurbed) w an external drive that lives at home and is on a hardline LAN connection. this comp would have an external HD be its native Dropbox destination....

but at that point wouldn't it just make more sense to fuck off dropbox and have a FTP sort of solution? Sure, Dropbox makes it easy to collab or share, but I COULD just use FTP for that sort of functionality... but i'd lose the cloud storage component..


sorry im rambling. long day, but this is a topic i consider a lot...
Sure FTP is fine when you tune the access settings. That's what I like abaut Dropbox too. Or you could use cloud storage, so you don't have to setup your own ftp- or file-server.

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Old 23-04-2018, 01:50 PM   #13
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Re: Long term backup medium

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasedobson View Post
slightly off topic.... any one have an elegant solution for continuously backing up ones dropbox to a physical drive?

I use DB for loads of work stuff and am starting to get paranoid. I have half of it synced with my laptop so thats good but "deep storage" isnt backed up anywhere but DB and well... im one of those with little faith.

i should also include that my dayjob is touring and i spend about half of the year travelling, its freelance work and I have LARGE sessions that i need access to for clients that I cant just host on my laptop or... tote around more external HDs than I already do.

I've considered setting up an older comp (macbook, i have a ton of old ones i have refurbed) w an external drive that lives at home and is on a hardline LAN connection. this comp would have an external HD be its native Dropbox destination....

but at that point wouldn't it just make more sense to fuck off dropbox and have a FTP sort of solution? Sure, Dropbox makes it easy to collab or share, but I COULD just use FTP for that sort of functionality... but i'd lose the cloud storage component..


sorry im rambling. long day, but this is a topic i consider a lot...
Yeah, a separate computer or NAS in a secure location (ie home) would work. Dropbox will run on just about anything these days, so a spare computer isn't a bad idea. You could use an external drive as long as it's always connected (has to be there when the OS boots up and before the Dropbox app starts).

Since Dropbox is literally just a folder on your computer, it means that folder is on any computer that has Dropbox installed and associated with your account. As long as everything maintains a solid internet connection, everything should be everywhere regardless of location. You drop a file in the folder while in Lisbon, it's in that folder back in Denver as soon as it syncs.

FTP would work, but you'd lose the 'fire and forget' ability to just save stuff to the Dropbox folder and magically have it synced. There's ways to automate those sorts of transfers as well, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth considering Dropbox just does it for you. There's also self-hosted solutions that work in the same way (Nextcloud, BT Sync, etc), but it requires a lot more setup and maintenance on your part, and it doesn't have the cloud/offsite component happening (great if you're paranoid or storing sensitive things, bad if you're relying on the cloud part of it).

Last edited by Artificer; 23-04-2018 at 04:23 PM.. Reason: clarity!

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Old 23-04-2018, 01:52 PM   #14
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Re: Long term backup medium

I'm still waiting for that DNA storage tech to actually kick in and hit the market..and I guess I'll be waiting for a while to come. Still, things seem to advancing in that area, so who knows?

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Old 23-04-2018, 05:39 PM   #15
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Re: Long term backup medium

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Old 23-04-2018, 10:11 PM   #16
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Re: Long term backup medium

Print a titanium master and bury it next to that billionaire's treasure in the rockies?

I keep an external hdd, copies on two hard drives in my production machine, dropbox, google drive, and a few flash drives around. I wouldn't touch modern archival tape with a 10 foot pole because the really modern stuff is getting updated every 18 months and only guarantees backwards compatibility for 2 generations, so you'd need to upgrade and backup every 3 years tops. The film industry is having a big problem with it rn. And I wouldn't want to be responsible for the care of any form of tape. I think if you're buying stuff that is guaranteed archival quality for optical disks, you'll be fine, but there are large variances in disk quality when that guarantee isn't present leading to some disks lasting a few years and some lasting decades.

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Old 23-04-2018, 10:27 PM   #17
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Re: Long term backup medium

How is this even a discussion? Some kind of solid state media. You might have to transfer it in oh...the next two decades to something more modern...I got a really nice 60 gig USB drive...

Why f about with CDR or DVDR? Solid State Memory is unlikely to go bad if stored properly and if you are only ever using it to back things up there won't be much usage-stress on the hardware. And as said, no mechanical parts.

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Old 24-04-2018, 12:01 AM   #18
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Re: Long term backup medium

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How is this even a discussion? Some kind of solid state media. You might have to transfer it in oh...the next two decades to something more modern...I got a really nice 60 gig USB drive...

Why f about with CDR or DVDR? Solid State Memory is unlikely to go bad if stored properly and if you are only ever using it to back things up there won't be much usage-stress on the hardware. And as said, no mechanical parts.
Ehhhh. SSDs and other non-volatile memory rely on write refreshing and power to renew their data. While taking it out and sticking it in a closet isn't immediately a death sentence, you'll get a couple years up to maybe a decade under optimal conditions (ie low temperatures). Unlike HDDs that magnetize metal to store data, non-volatile memory relies on electron charge which will dissipate over time, and much faster than hard drive platters will demagnetize. Expecting an SSD to have all its data in place after a decade is a bit like pulling your old cellphone out after a year and expecting it to turn on. And that's for the more expensive NAND chips you find in SSDs - the cheap ones you see in USB sticks have significantly more leakage.

So yeah, it'll work for awhile, but given the cost and time frame differential between optical media and SSDs, it doesn't make as much sense. Even the best priced SSDs are ~$0.25/GB. HTL BD-Rs are reliably $0.05/GB for around twice the longevity.

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Old 24-04-2018, 03:18 AM   #19
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Re: Long term backup medium

You guys really think you have a better chance of maintaining your data on some disk in your closet vs an online service? Interesting. I just figured everybody did the online thing nowadays but i guess I was wrong.

It would be nice if there was a cd that would hold like 50 gigs.

EDIT: well damn thats how much a dual layer Blu-ray holds.

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Old 24-04-2018, 01:43 PM   #20
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Re: Long term backup medium

Well some of us have lots of data that makes some methods less than practical.

For instance I've got about 20 TB worth, and I like to have 2 backups so I need 40 TB of storage.

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