Weird counter panning effect?
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:29 AM   #1
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Weird counter panning effect?

dont have any song examples because the concept of this came back to me out of the blue. I recall hearing an effect similar to a harmonized track, two identical tracks layered on top of each other, unisoned,etc being panned from opposite directions ( one right to left the other left to right) and they some how seemed to fit perfectly with eachother and not clash or jumble in the mixed but had identical texture and tone. They just seemed to counter pan almost like two bike chains slipping over each other with some object or artifact in the middle. Seemed like some stereo width or bineaural seperation with FX was happening as well....cant pin any information or tutorials on this down and i feel like ive heard it in some dubstep/ neurobass/ idm type stuff, im new here and any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 04-11-2016, 04:13 AM   #2
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

I might be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're talking about double-tracking. Normally, you'd record two live parts in mono and then pan one left and one right and be done with it. To do what you're talking about, I'd render two synth tracks in mono and pan them around each other and see what happens, then go from there.
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Old 04-11-2016, 05:52 AM   #3
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

If you're describing what I think you're describing, then what you're talking about is a pretty standard technique in mixing.



Panning two identical instruments to the left and right channel is something that a lot of mixing engineers do to make their tracks bigger. Could be wrong on this (if so, please correct me haha) but this technique is called "Wall of Sound". With electronic music on computer, it's way easier. All you gotta do is clone the plugin, detune them a little bit and pan them to the left and right. Great way to get big sounding tracks!

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Old 04-11-2016, 06:07 AM   #4
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

thanks for the replies guys, i guess im not describing it very well. wish i could provide examples of it. but it seems to be a very blatant electronic effect almost as if you have one compressed distinct waveform/envelope/shape ,etc interlocking over the other like a puzzle piece but they are constantly moving over eachother. one panning continuously to the right and one to the left. and i dont know if they are using stereo width or what have you but one one of the synths/layers seems to be sitting right on top of the other in the mix and the other directly underneath and as i mentioned in the previous comment it seems to almost be like a bike chain rolling over itself ( with almost hard visceral bass and sub bass artifacts panning away from each other). I assume it has to be layering of multiple synths from high to low pitch octaves maybe fm synthesis or some weird granular/wavetable/ resampling modular tom foolery.
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:29 AM   #5
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

Side chaining, probably.

(the answer is always side chaining)
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:34 PM   #6
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by Narukami Music View Post
If you're describing what I think you're describing, then what you're talking about is a pretty standard technique in mixing.



Panning two identical instruments to the left and right channel is something that a lot of mixing engineers do to make their tracks bigger. Could be wrong on this (if so, please correct me haha) but this technique is called "Wall of Sound". With electronic music on computer, it's way easier. All you gotta do is clone the plugin, detune them a little bit and pan them to the left and right. Great way to get big sounding tracks!
Or instead of detuning them add a bit of delay to one side somewhere between a 6 and 15ms depending on taste should do the trick.

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Old 04-11-2016, 01:01 PM   #7
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

Could it be that it uses reverb with the reverb signal panned hard to opposite sides? Reverb can sound distinct in space. The phrase under could also suggest that the lower freq bands were panned in that manner.

An example would help.

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Old 04-11-2016, 02:28 PM   #8
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by Battosaix View Post
thanks for the replies guys, i guess im not describing it very well. wish i could provide examples of it. but it seems to be a very blatant electronic effect almost as if you have one compressed distinct waveform/envelope/shape ,etc interlocking over the other like a puzzle piece but they are constantly moving over eachother. one panning continuously to the right and one to the left. and i dont know if they are using stereo width or what have you but one one of the synths/layers seems to be sitting right on top of the other in the mix and the other directly underneath and as i mentioned in the previous comment it seems to almost be like a bike chain rolling over itself ( with almost hard visceral bass and sub bass artifacts panning away from each other). I assume it has to be layering of multiple synths from high to low pitch octaves maybe fm synthesis or some weird granular/wavetable/ resampling modular tom foolery.
do you mean like the example below, but instead of pitch changing the panning is forever panning in one direction?


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Old 04-11-2016, 06:56 PM   #9
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by professurreal View Post
Or instead of detuning them add a bit of delay to one side somewhere between a 6 and 15ms depending on taste should do the trick.
Yeap, should work just as well! I think the track "Talk Is Cheap" by Chet Faker does something like that, although it's not with synths.

OP, maybe you should give an example of a song that does what you're hoping to achieve. Even if you can't post links, at least tell us the name of the song and timestamp. We can help from there

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Old 04-11-2016, 07:12 PM   #10
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by professurreal View Post
Or instead of detuning them add a bit of delay to one side somewhere between a 6 and 15ms depending on taste should do the trick.
oh,you mean static comb filtering..is that a "trick"now,nice to know


Based on the genres you listed (OP) i'd literally just say that this was Unison in a synth.i really don't see or have heard much proper multitracking/emsembles in any Dubstep bar a very very select few artists (like 2)
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:05 PM   #11
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

yes parricide its like two seperate synth tracks sharing the same space forever panning in opposite directions, but the movement and distortion or sonic character seems to fit together. I feel really silly for not being able to provide an example, i know it would help greatly, i cant seem to find the song again. It just seemed like the sound started from just outside the peripheral hearing on the left and right sides of the listener and then never stops panning to the opposite side, all the while maintaining some kind of side chaining or filter movement. Like the top sound panning left would have a push in the movement of the envelope or waveform and then the bottom sound panning right would give way or have gaps in the volume to fit perfectly with the distortions and movements of the sound above it and then it would sound like they would take turns doing that. Almost like interlocking teeth or something. I feel ridiculous trying to pinpoint this.

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Old 04-11-2016, 08:20 PM   #12
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by Battosaix View Post
yes parricide its like two seperate synth tracks sharing the same space forever panning in opposite directions, but the movement and distortion or sonic character seems to fit together. I feel really silly for not being able to provide an example, i know it would help greatly, i cant seem to find the song again. It just seemed like the sound started from just outside the peripheral hearing on the left and right sides of the listener and then never stops panning to the opposite side, all the while maintaining some kind of side chaining or filter movement. Like the top sound panning left would have a push in the movement of the envelope or waveform and then the bottom sound panning right would give way or have gaps in the volume to fit perfectly with the distortions and movements of the sound above it and then it would sound like they would take turns doing that. Almost like interlocking teeth or something. I feel ridiculous trying to pinpoint this.

Well what you are describing sounds like panning being modulated with an LFO or automation clip with one of them being somewhat out of phase with the other modulation clip,LFO.when the 2 briefly cross out of one another you'll get a quite dramatic sense of width due to the phase cancellation between the 2 panning positions (because one of the modulations is 90 or however many degrees out of phase with the other modulating sound) (as stereo is just phase cancellation between 2 channels)
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:22 PM   #13
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

yeah TIMT i think thats on the right track, maybe some kind of automated side chaining and stereo width automation along with the panning maybe something to do with the reverb as well as others have mentioned, possible notch filter and flanger/phaser type deal. Variable compression? its just really blowing my mind right now, i just remember it sounding like some weird granular wavetable resynthesis neurobass sound but the artist used the whole bineural rotating panning automation effect on multiple things in the track from random analog synths to syncopated drum tracks being detuned and seperated to create this weird symmetry; almost as if everything in the track was just one big reverb pad having its stereo width and wet/dry signal adjusted and then having the volume filtered and panned but in a way that it all seemed to mesh together ( of course there was layering in the track as well that sounded good but didnt interlock perfectly as im describing). When the effect im talking about occurred it almost seemed like it was just the same exact track layered right on top of itself ( more then once possibly) then thrown through various fx chains after that; like the sound was coming at the eyes of the listener then backing away again and fracturing itself then becoming whole, all the while achieving the panning and other various effects and movements. but the fractal/ Mandelbrot shaping of the centered background sound was very apparent to me and it seemed to fluctuate as if it was some kind of reverb wavetable pad. Needless to say it was the most interesting sound design i have ever heard and ive been wanting to recreate something like it through experimentation. Im kicking myself in the head now for not remembering the artist or song but i was a little preoccupied at the time with inebriation.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:46 AM   #14
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battosaix View Post
yeah TIMT i think thats on the right track, maybe some kind of automated side chaining and stereo width automation along with the panning maybe something to do with the reverb as well as others have mentioned, possible notch filter and flanger/phaser type deal. Variable compression? its just really blowing my mind right now, i just remember it sounding like some weird granular wavetable resynthesis neurobass sound but the artist used the whole bineural rotating panning automation effect on multiple things in the track from random analog synths to syncopated drum tracks being detuned and seperated to create this weird symmetry; almost as if everything in the track was just one big reverb pad having its stereo width and wet/dry signal adjusted and then having the volume filtered and panned but in a way that it all seemed to mesh together ( of course there was layering in the track as well that sounded good but didnt interlock perfectly as im describing). When the effect im talking about occurred it almost seemed like it was just the same exact track layered right on top of itself ( more then once possibly) then thrown through various fx chains after that; like the sound was coming at the eyes of the listener then backing away again and fracturing itself then becoming whole, all the while achieving the panning and other various effects and movements. but the fractal/ Mandelbrot shaping of the centered background sound was very apparent to me and it seemed to fluctuate as if it was some kind of reverb wavetable pad. Needless to say it was the most interesting sound design i have ever heard and ive been wanting to recreate something like it through experimentation. Im kicking myself in the head now for not remembering the artist or song but i was a little preoccupied at the time with inebriation.

You aint helping anyone by ranting on about a load of things that we have no reference towards.as has been suggested,perhaps it is time you provided an example or at least a time stamp so we have something to reference your observations against

I didn't say anything about complicated stereo sidechain,i literally was just talking about partially out of phase panning modulation..i'm willing to bet it is not even half as complicated as that wall of text you have here
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:16 PM   #15
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

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Originally Posted by Battosaix View Post
yes parricide its like two seperate synth tracks sharing the same space forever panning in opposite directions, but the movement and distortion or sonic character seems to fit together. I feel really silly for not being able to provide an example, i know it would help greatly, i cant seem to find the song again. It just seemed like the sound started from just outside the peripheral hearing on the left and right sides of the listener and then never stops panning to the opposite side, all the while maintaining some kind of side chaining or filter movement. Like the top sound panning left would have a push in the movement of the envelope or waveform and then the bottom sound panning right would give way or have gaps in the volume to fit perfectly with the distortions and movements of the sound above it and then it would sound like they would take turns doing that. Almost like interlocking teeth or something. I feel ridiculous trying to pinpoint this.
im not really 100% sure what you are trying to describe, but it sounds like it might be a combination of things.
i will have a go at creating infinite panning, but i have never tried this before and im not 100% sure if the ideas in my head will work.

the best option for you is to really dig and try your best to find that track or something else that does it, but im sure if it was that easy you would have done it already.

ive got to leave right now, but i will read through your points and try some ideas soon.

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Old 05-11-2016, 05:49 PM   #16
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

Thanks Parricide, i would greatly appreciate any attempt by veterans in sound design to help achieve this effect, i wish i could provide a time stamp or a song its really bothering me, i feel like ive provided enough descriptive terms of it for someone to have a go at creating this if this is a hidden gem and not a common place effect. But i know i heard it; just a track cut in half counter panning horizontally, maybe its some clever and particular use of resynthesis in a modular setting for more options with automations and parameters. Im sorry for only being able to provide the rantings of a mad man who thought they saw another auditory dimension, i wont rave about it anymore or expect anymore response on the matter because i really dont want to upset or bother any of the regulars on this forum. If anyone wants to put 2 cents in to this thread however i would be spilling over with joy.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:13 PM   #17
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

i had a play today at trying to create a shepard tone type effect, but with panning and couldnt quite get it to work.
i tried simply panning one layer from left to right, then as it moved across i introduced another layer, which then moved left to right, then as that panned i introduced another one (same concept as the shepard tone), but this didnt seem to work quite right. i was using a simple saw wave with slight detuning on each layer which might have been part of the reason it didnt really work, they seemed to meet in the middle and make a centred sound, although some adjustments to the timing might have fixed this.

then i tried something along the lines of the comb filter effect you spoke about.
i started two sounds panned hard left and right, then panned them in opposite directions. i used an EQ to slowly cut the even harmonics on one and the odd harmonics on the other so that there was no EQ when they were hard panned, 24dB of cut when they met in the middle, then back to no EQ when they were hard panned to the opposite side. this didnt really work either, but to be honest i didnt think it would.

both these attempts used basic single voice raw waveforms, which could have been a major part of why they didnt work, idk.

i have read over everything you have said to describe it again and im just so confused about what youre trying to describe and im starting to doubt that a shepard tone type effect is even what you heard. i think TIMT might be correct in thinking it is probably not as complicated as the wall of text used to describe it.

have you tried the double tracking suggestions mentioned already? or simply hard panning and detuning voices?
have you attempted to recreate it yourself through trial and error? if so what did you do to attempt it? knowing this might give us a better idea.

i assume you still havent found a track with the effect.

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Old 08-11-2016, 02:53 AM   #18
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Re: Weird counter panning effect?

Hey parricide, i havent gotten a chance to fiddle with it myself because i just moved and was forced to sell my computer and monitors so as of right now im responding from a crappy laptop otherwise i would have been all over this myself trying to recreate the effect.Thanks for your attempts to recreate the sound, like i said it honestly to put it as simply as possible sounds like two identical tracks sharing the same space in the mix; except one track is being panned from the left to right and the other track is being panned right to left. Each track also having its own filters and modulation.I think the whole " sharing the same space but counter panning horizontally thing" might just be an illusion of one track being set further back in the mix and one brought forward more with some kind of stereo width effect. I just know it sounded like both tracks were panning in opposite directions and had a similar sounding sound design as the base for each sound ( same distortion, ring modulation ,etc) I think ill just have to experiment with it my self once i get set up again, i think it with probably just involve heavy automation of parameters within a number of controls ( like how much of the setting is being applied at any givin time on the wet/dry amounts) I wish i could have been more useful on the matter. I think ill just have to get really weird with my modular environment and make some really weird neurobass reese type bass with some kind of envelope follower and go from that point.

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