Teenage Engineering pocket operator
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Old 10-30-2016, 10:36 PM   #1
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Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Just for giggles I ordered the PO-14 sub bass synthesizer. For 60 bucks you get a nice little source of sounds to feed your samplers. This one sounds properly analog (it isn't). Nice.

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Old 10-31-2016, 04:00 PM   #2
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

A friend of mine got the rhythm one (I think it's called Factory?) and really enjoys it. Doesn't sound bad at all either.

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Old 10-31-2016, 05:34 PM   #3
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

I've got the PO-12 rhythm and love it.

I have an OP-1 too which is why I don't own more of them. Might get the office though as I do like drum machines....

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Old 10-31-2016, 06:04 PM   #4
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

dude its a rip off...
paying for bare pcb board with lcd and chip more than 10$ (even this is bit overpriced) is plan dumb, manufacturing that thing costs not more than 2 bucks, you can easily do it yourself
dont know about you, but 50 euros is half salary here, you can get cheap android phone and install software on it for same price
now come on, roast me

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Old 10-31-2016, 06:30 PM   #5
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
dude its a rip off...
paying for bare pcb board with lcd and chip more than 10$ (even this is bit overpriced) is plan dumb, manufacturing that thing costs not more than 2 bucks, you can easily do it yourself
dont know about you, but 50 euros is half salary here, you can get cheap android phone and install software on it for same price
now come on, roast me
income disparity aside...you continue to be such a cute little rascal, darling really

you've got your facts straight, but you miss the point entirely

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Old 10-31-2016, 06:50 PM   #6
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

are you hitting on me lol ?
btw could you tell me what point i miss ?

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Old 11-01-2016, 04:23 AM   #7
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
are you hitting on me lol ?
btw could you tell me what point i miss ?
amongst other points, perhaps that I really don't care.

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Old 11-01-2016, 10:30 PM   #8
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:36 PM   #9
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Quote:
Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
dude its a rip off...
paying for bare pcb board with lcd and chip more than 10$ (even this is bit overpriced) is plan dumb, manufacturing that thing costs not more than 2 bucks, you can easily do it yourself
dont know about you, but 50 euros is half salary here, you can get cheap android phone and install software on it for same price
now come on, roast me
I shouldn't reply, but since I got some time on my hands right now, what the hell

so, many people look at what it costs to manufacture something, and automatically assume that retail - "cost of manufacturing" equals whatever they put in their pocket.

Now this is just incorrect

You need competent people to design the stuff in the first place, pick components, try, make prototypes, try again, until they get it just right. This process can take weeks, months, years sometimes, and those competent people don't work for free. And since the product isn't out yet, you pretty much have to pay them out of your own pocket.

Just throwing numbers out there, they may differ, but say you hire a couple of engineers, take them young, fresh ideas, and they don't ask for that much money, so you pay them $1500 (which ultimately costs you pretty much double, depending on where your company is), so that is a $6000 monthly, and you're not even close to selling anything yet.

These dudes will need resources, a desk, an office (probably rental, say you can get away with $5/700 a month), computers, and of course a plethora of components, tools, just so they can actually get to work.

Now you got a small office, a couple engineers, you're out $6700 every single month. You still haven't sold anything, you probably won't sell anything for at least a year, so that's about 80/90k for the first year, out of your own pocket.

after that, you need a website, some marketing, accountants (my accountants take me 280/month so that's 3360, around $3700 a year)

You may want to hire a single guy, again some youngster, for marketing, social media, photography and whatnot, it shouldn't cost you much, say the kid has his own company, bills you for a small $700/month (which isn't much, really), $8400/year

OF course, bits and bobs, your own time doing what you do, for the first year, let's see something small, you're out for about 100k, you need to sell about 1600 devices just to break even, reach a point where you have nothing, zero.

But these guys still want a salary, don't they? you need to work on new products, you need to pay for producing your own stuff, upfront since you're a small company and you'll be ordering thousands.

Say you pay around $10/15 per unit produced (which should be about right), most of your sales will be through retailers, who will not pay the full $60, but probably more about $25/30, upwards of $40 maybe, let's say 40, so it's not 1600 pieces you need to break even, it's 2500, not counting production costs.

In order to sell that much, you really need to push on the marketing side, so that college kid for $700/month won't be enough anymore, you'll need someone full time, if not a team (photography, video, networking, social networks and what have you)

By then, you probably need a bigger office building too, you need to send some free stuff to reviewers, you need to take care of customer service, returns, bugs, updates (not in this case, in particular, but customer service is still there), so you need people for that too.

it involves a huge amount of risk (ask akai), so you need to take that into consideration too, what if that product doesn't sell, you need a backup plan, which also costs money.

So in the end, putting out this good of a product for this low of a price is nothing short of a performance.

These are great musical instruments for the price, but they don't "cost $5 to make", they cost much, much more, and it's not the manufacturing cost, it's the whole process of getting a product out there. Manufacturing costs only cover a very small amount of the retail price and margins.

as a retailer myself, you pretty much have to sell your stuff double of what you pay it if you want any chance of survival.
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:59 PM   #10
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by Emmanuel G. View Post
I shouldn't reply, but since I got some time on my hands right now, what the hell

so, many people look at what it costs to manufacture something, and automatically assume that retail - "cost of manufacturing" equals whatever they put in their pocket.

Now this is just incorrect

You need competent people to design the stuff in the first place, pick components, try, make prototypes, try again, until they get it just right. This process can take weeks, months, years sometimes, and those competent people don't work for free. And since the product isn't out yet, you pretty much have to pay them out of your own pocket.

Just throwing numbers out there, they may differ, but say you hire a couple of engineers, take them young, fresh ideas, and they don't ask for that much money, so you pay them $1500 (which ultimately costs you pretty much double, depending on where your company is), so that is a $6000 monthly, and you're not even close to selling anything yet.

These dudes will need resources, a desk, an office (probably rental, say you can get away with $5/700 a month), computers, and of course a plethora of components, tools, just so they can actually get to work.

Now you got a small office, a couple engineers, you're out $6700 every single month. You still haven't sold anything, you probably won't sell anything for at least a year, so that's about 80/90k for the first year, out of your own pocket.

after that, you need a website, some marketing, accountants (my accountants take me 280/month so that's 3360, around $3700 a year)

You may want to hire a single guy, again some youngster, for marketing, social media, photography and whatnot, it shouldn't cost you much, say the kid has his own company, bills you for a small $700/month (which isn't much, really), $8400/year

OF course, bits and bobs, your own time doing what you do, for the first year, let's see something small, you're out for about 100k, you need to sell about 1600 devices just to break even, reach a point where you have nothing, zero.

But these guys still want a salary, don't they? you need to work on new products, you need to pay for producing your own stuff, upfront since you're a small company and you'll be ordering thousands.

Say you pay around $10/15 per unit produced (which should be about right), most of your sales will be through retailers, who will not pay the full $60, but probably more about $25/30, upwards of $40 maybe, let's say 40, so it's not 1600 pieces you need to break even, it's 2500, not counting production costs.

In order to sell that much, you really need to push on the marketing side, so that college kid for $700/month won't be enough anymore, you'll need someone full time, if not a team (photography, video, networking, social networks and what have you)

By then, you probably need a bigger office building too, you need to send some free stuff to reviewers, you need to take care of customer service, returns, bugs, updates (not in this case, in particular, but customer service is still there), so you need people for that too.

it involves a huge amount of risk (ask akai), so you need to take that into consideration too, what if that product doesn't sell, you need a backup plan, which also costs money.

So in the end, putting out this good of a product for this low of a price is nothing short of a performance.

These are great musical instruments for the price, but they don't "cost $5 to make", they cost much, much more, and it's not the manufacturing cost, it's the whole process of getting a product out there. Manufacturing costs only cover a very small amount of the retail price and margins.

as a retailer myself, you pretty much have to sell your stuff double of what you pay it if you want any chance of survival.
this is an eye opener, especially considering how much I complain about the cost of musical instruments, haha.

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Old 11-02-2016, 02:25 PM   #11
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel G. View Post
I shouldn't reply, but since I got some time on my hands right now, what the hell

so, many people look at what it costs to manufacture something, and automatically assume that retail - "cost of manufacturing" equals whatever they put in their pocket.

Now this is just incorrect

You need competent people to design the stuff in the first place, pick components, try, make prototypes, try again, until they get it just right. This process can take weeks, months, years sometimes, and those competent people don't work for free. And since the product isn't out yet, you pretty much have to pay them out of your own pocket.

Just throwing numbers out there, they may differ, but say you hire a couple of engineers, take them young, fresh ideas, and they don't ask for that much money, so you pay them $1500 (which ultimately costs you pretty much double, depending on where your company is), so that is a $6000 monthly, and you're not even close to selling anything yet.

These dudes will need resources, a desk, an office (probably rental, say you can get away with $5/700 a month), computers, and of course a plethora of components, tools, just so they can actually get to work.

Now you got a small office, a couple engineers, you're out $6700 every single month. You still haven't sold anything, you probably won't sell anything for at least a year, so that's about 80/90k for the first year, out of your own pocket.

after that, you need a website, some marketing, accountants (my accountants take me 280/month so that's 3360, around $3700 a year)

You may want to hire a single guy, again some youngster, for marketing, social media, photography and whatnot, it shouldn't cost you much, say the kid has his own company, bills you for a small $700/month (which isn't much, really), $8400/year

OF course, bits and bobs, your own time doing what you do, for the first year, let's see something small, you're out for about 100k, you need to sell about 1600 devices just to break even, reach a point where you have nothing, zero.

But these guys still want a salary, don't they? you need to work on new products, you need to pay for producing your own stuff, upfront since you're a small company and you'll be ordering thousands.

Say you pay around $10/15 per unit produced (which should be about right), most of your sales will be through retailers, who will not pay the full $60, but probably more about $25/30, upwards of $40 maybe, let's say 40, so it's not 1600 pieces you need to break even, it's 2500, not counting production costs.

In order to sell that much, you really need to push on the marketing side, so that college kid for $700/month won't be enough anymore, you'll need someone full time, if not a team (photography, video, networking, social networks and what have you)

By then, you probably need a bigger office building too, you need to send some free stuff to reviewers, you need to take care of customer service, returns, bugs, updates (not in this case, in particular, but customer service is still there), so you need people for that too.

it involves a huge amount of risk (ask akai), so you need to take that into consideration too, what if that product doesn't sell, you need a backup plan, which also costs money.

So in the end, putting out this good of a product for this low of a price is nothing short of a performance.

These are great musical instruments for the price, but they don't "cost $5 to make", they cost much, much more, and it's not the manufacturing cost, it's the whole process of getting a product out there. Manufacturing costs only cover a very small amount of the retail price and margins.

as a retailer myself, you pretty much have to sell your stuff double of what you pay it if you want any chance of survival.
Thanks for that post. I work in Big Pharma and it is the very same arguments circling around regarding pricing. The average rate of attrition of an experimental cancer drug undergoing clinical development is about 92%. You read that right. If you got only paid for your success and achieved it on only 8% of the days you came to work, out of the 250 days a year you came in, you'd get paid on 20 of them. What sort of money would you expect to get paid per day? If you're making average income that'd be $2,500 per successful day (vs $200 if you got paid regardless of success). Oh, and that 8% is an average over thousands of programs, so expect a few years in which you get paid $0 (that's how statistics work). And everyone thinks you're a dick because you get paid so much. Do you want the job?

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Old 11-02-2016, 08:56 PM   #12
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Quote:
Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
dude its a rip off...
paying for bare pcb board with lcd and chip more than 10$ (even this is bit overpriced) is plan dumb, manufacturing that thing costs not more than 2 bucks, you can easily do it yourself
dont know about you, but 50 euros is half salary here, you can get cheap android phone and install software on it for same price
now come on, roast me
I looked and couldn't find a cheap android phone with two potentiometers on it. As 92% of the PO is about tweaking those knobs the best your solution could offer would be 8% 'for the same'....

However, considering your financial situation then I'm guessing no electronic musical instrument is going to be particularly good value - a laptop and free software (or pirate the shit out of everything...) is possibly the most cost effective way forward

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Old 11-02-2016, 09:42 PM   #13
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by mute machine View Post
this is an eye opener, especially considering how much I complain about the cost of musical instruments, haha.
There has never been a better, more affordable time than right now to be into music technology and instruments.

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Old 11-02-2016, 09:46 PM   #14
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by liquid_air View Post
Thanks for that post. I work in Big Pharma and it is the very same arguments circling around regarding pricing. The average rate of attrition of an experimental cancer drug undergoing clinical development is about 92%. You read that right. If you got only paid for your success and achieved it on only 8% of the days you came to work, out of the 250 days a year you came in, you'd get paid on 20 of them. What sort of money would you expect to get paid per day? If you're making average income that'd be $2,500 per successful day (vs $200 if you got paid regardless of success). Oh, and that 8% is an average over thousands of programs, so expect a few years in which you get paid $0 (that's how statistics work). And everyone thinks you're a dick because you get paid so much. Do you want the job?
On top of that, the rest of the world makes fun of America's expensive health care, not realizing that the main reason it is so expensive here is that we subsidize the rest of the world's cheap healthcare by doing over 90% of all R&D.

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Old 11-02-2016, 09:47 PM   #15
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Finally, if you can't afford an electronic instrument under $100, you're probably better off getting into a different hobby.

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Old 11-03-2016, 12:02 AM   #16
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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On top of that, the rest of the world makes fun of America's expensive health care, not realizing that the main reason it is so expensive here is that we subsidize the rest of the world's cheap healthcare by doing over 90% of all R&D.
Of which only 15% is spent on prescription drugs. Relative to all other components of the cost structure they tend to offer a bargain. Take the HCV drug sovaldi. It offers a 98% cure rate of a disease that, left untreated, can lead to liver failure or cancer with a substantial amount of suffering and cost. To patients, society, and insurance companies (due to slow disease progression that may mean Medicaid, I.e. tax payers). Even considering the cost of treatment with the drug, this is far less costly on all of the dimensions listed above.

Note:
All statements in this and prior posts are my personal opinion only and made as a private citizen expressing my personal views only.

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Old 11-03-2016, 07:06 AM   #17
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

ok buddy, im no economics expert, but explain that i CAN buy android tablet probably multitouch for same price
there is no innovative design in that things all you need is usb programming setup for a chip and automatic soldering machine, you can rent one from factory if you dont own one yourself
fact is that this thing costs 50$ for same price i can get piece of hardware that offers me: drum machine, synth, midi over usb, (maybe even multi)touch screen many possible freeware DAWs
i just dont see logic behind this thing, if you are DIYer than buying this thing must be even more absurd for you
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:09 AM   #18
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

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Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
ok buddy, im no economics expert, but explain that i CAN buy android tablet probably multitouch for same price
there is no innovative design in that things all you need is usb programming setup for a chip and automatic soldering machine, you can rent one from factory if you dont own one yourself
fact is that this thing costs 50$ for same price i can get piece of hardware that offers me: drum machine, synth, midi over usb, (maybe even multi)touch screen many possible freeware DAWs
i just dont see logic behind this thing, if you are DIYer than buying this thing must be even more absurd for you
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your point of view is valid, yet only anecdotal evidence and by no way "the Truth" (and neither is mine, by the way)


And you are, indeed right, on something: the actual process of running a company isn't that difficult in itselt.

Where most people fail, is that most don't actually start, negative thinking, worrying about the opinion of others (friends, family etc...), not willing to take the actual risk and put their balls on the table. not willing to get up early, give up vacations, afraid of failure.

Getting a job with no responsibiliy, no consequences, no hassle, is so much easier and less frightening to the vast majority of people, and it's fine, I guess. Choices, consequences.

The guys @ teenage engineering are doing good, I presume, probably better than you and I and most of us here.

now, if it's so easy, why don't you actually do it, make a million bucks with a soldering iron, then change the world. Buy stuff for one buck, sell it for fifty.

but that's the thing, easy or not, profitable or not, most people just won't ever have the balls to put it all on the line and create a company that builds toy musical instruments, and actually succeed at it.

For that ballsy move alone, they deserve every penny they get.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:29 AM   #19
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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

because probs noone will buy it, and how do you know they are doing well ?
and i already think about making multi effects stomp boxes for a long time

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Re: Teenage Engineering pocket operator

Quote:
Originally Posted by D42K732202 View Post
because probs noone will buy it, and how do you know they are doing well ?
and i already think about making multi effects stomp boxes for a long time
If it is as easy as you make it sound then what are you waiting for? If they are any good I'm sure that you will find some customers on here

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