[Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:39 PM   #1
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[Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

Hi

I've just moved into my first house and been extremely swamped with everything that comes with it. I have continued to make time to study music and right now I am involved with studing the acient art of Four Part writing and Counter Point. Here are a few examples of the very many things I have writen over the past few weeks. Hope you find the hamony enjoyable. Thanks!

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Old 07-03-2018, 10:51 PM   #2
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

This kind of things are so useful to practice and so often overlooked. People tend to forget that most of what we hear today comes from way back when. I've only got into classical into my early 30s, after spending my 20s doing mostly jazz related stuff, I thought classical wouldn't touch jazz on depth and ultimate musicality.
but then I heard mahler

Counterpoint exercises are on my to do list, most definitely, and you just reminded me of that

great music too <3
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:15 PM   #3
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

I admire that you are attempting this. It's a pretty intimidating thing to approach.

That said, I think that if you adjust your approach a bit, you will probably get some more convincing results.

First of all, I think you might be getting the cart ahead of the horse a bit on all the 16th note runs. By having all these fast runs, you're actually diminishing the amount of opportunities you have to practice and learn about voice leading, which is probably the biggest component of this study. Also, the first two examples aren't really counterpoint. It's really just a bass note with some keyboard riffing on top.. don't get me wrong it's great that your ear is good enough to be able to do that well! Not everyone can say that.

I would start with something very limited. Something that is maybe a bit slower and only quarter notes and eight notes, and consists of two voices. This will allow you to focus on the ways the two lines interact a bit more. Be very conscious of what type of motion is occurring between the two voices.. oblique, contrary etc..

Also, two simple things to keep in mind that really really make things sound more catchy and "musical".. motifs and call and response. It may be stating the obvious, but I think you could bring these out a little more. I hear some of it, but since the point of this is for you to learn, I would really just exaggerate it for practice.

For a motif, I would basically just think of it as a shape. first note does a large leap up to second note, then goes down two notes stepwise and then a small leap up to the final note.. or whatever. Try to abuse that motif as much as you can... try to echo it between the voices (call and response) without breaking any counterpoint rules. If you limit your self to slow rhythms, this will prove challenging and as a result you will get more out of it. The real magic (and challenge) of counterpoint happens when voices are both moving at the same rate.

My fav counterpoint stuff is probably bach's french suites.

so insane.


keep it up, and i look forward to hearing your next attempts.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:26 PM   #4
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel G. View Post
This kind of things are so useful to practice and so often overlooked. People tend to forget that most of what we hear today comes from way back when. I've only got into classical into my early 30s, after spending my 20s doing mostly jazz related stuff, I thought classical wouldn't touch jazz on depth and ultimate musicality.
but then I heard mahler

Counterpoint exercises are on my to do list, most definitely, and you just reminded me of that

great music too <3
Thank you for the feedback!

I wanted a better more fundemental understanding of music but didnt really know where to look. sticking with it and buying countless books I finally found good info on how to get that better understanding. I also play Jazz and funk on the piano, and I have a greater appreciation for those 2 styles now because they introduced so many ideas that were "taboo" when Counter Point was in its Golden age. Really really fascinating stuff, can't get enough.

Last edited by Bergnermd; 07-03-2018 at 11:40 PM..

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Old 07-03-2018, 11:39 PM   #5
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

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Originally Posted by mnkvolcno View Post
I admire that you are attempting this. It's a pretty intimidating thing to approach.

That said, I think that if you adjust your approach a bit, you will probably get some more convincing results.

First of all, I think you might be getting the cart ahead of the horse a bit on all the 16th note runs. By having all these fast runs, you're actually diminishing the amount of opportunities you have to practice and learn about voice leading, which is probably the biggest component of this study. Also, the first two examples aren't really counterpoint. It's really just a bass note with some keyboard riffing on top.. don't get me wrong it's great that your ear is good enough to be able to do that well! Not everyone can say that.

I would start with something very limited. Something that is maybe a bit slower and only quarter notes and eight notes, and consists of two voices. This will allow you to focus on the ways the two lines interact a bit more. Be very conscious of what type of motion is occurring between the two voices.. oblique, contrary etc..

Also, two simple things to keep in mind that really really make things sound more catchy and "musical".. motifs and call and response. It may be stating the obvious, but I think you could bring these out a little more. I hear some of it, but since the point of this is for you to learn, I would really just exaggerate it for practice.

For a motif, I would basically just think of it as a shape. first note does a large leap up to second note, then goes down two notes stepwise and then a small leap up to the final note.. or whatever. Try to abuse that motif as much as you can... try to echo it between the voices (call and response) without breaking any counterpoint rules. If you limit your self to slow rhythms, this will prove challenging and as a result you will get more out of it. The real magic (and challenge) of counterpoint happens when voices are both moving at the same rate.

My fav counterpoint stuff is probably bach's french suites. [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]


so insane.


keep it up, and i look forward to hearing your next attempts.
Thank you for your feedback!

I guess I should explain what I am doing exactly to make things a bit clearer. I am following along with a book that is considered the standered of counter point.

I only have just gotten to the end of the first part of the book and that first part only works with 2 voices. One voice being whats called the Cantus Firmus, and the second part the actual counter point. When writing I use only 2 voices but when I put my work on the computer I can't help myself and I double the Cantus Firmus an octave to really give it some beef lol. The whole point of me doing this is just for excersise and fun, good on you for realizing that it is not actual "counter point" as how it should be followed.

As far as the 16th note thing, What it really is, is, four parts to a whole. I speed things up a little just becuase I can I guess, maybe its more impressive I think and a lot quciker. But beileve it or not I am using all the procedures of counter point when writing. I just can't help myself with the speed and doubling of the cantus firmus.

One more thing, I am not to the point of writing motifs and patterens and what not, I am not even studying chords yet. Next Chapter will begin the treatment of Note against Note in three Parts. Then there is a forth voice added after that.

Thank you for sharing that song, I am a huge fan and my play list has grown.

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Old 08-03-2018, 04:38 AM   #6
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

Oh nice! I'm glad to see that you are working through a book. In that case just disregard what i said and follow the book I reckon. When I read a post like this, i just generally assume that someone is just piecing stuff together from random stuff on the internet, which can obviously be very difficult. But you're doing the smart thing, going with a method book that is generally regarded as good. I hope you post more of these. I'm curious to see how it will progress.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:46 AM   #7
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Re: [Classical/ Counter Point] Brogner - Counter Point Practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnkvolcno View Post
Oh nice! I'm glad to see that you are working through a book. In that case just disregard what i said and follow the book I reckon. When I read a post like this, i just generally assume that someone is just piecing stuff together from random stuff on the internet, which can obviously be very difficult. But you're doing the smart thing, going with a method book that is generally regarded as good. I hope you post more of these. I'm curious to see how it will progress.

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