Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:26 PM   #1
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Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

I already have Max for Live, however I dont feel I take advantage of it as much as I could and I also dont mess around with building my own Max devices... But I'm interested in doing so, but I'm also interested in Reaktor 6

Any thoughts on what would be the better software to focus on?

I guess, with Reaktor, I could leave the Ableton Live environment if say, I wanted to use Bitwig or Logic, but with Max I'd stuck inside Live with any devices I built or paid for, so I guess in an investment kind of way Reaktor is more future-flexible

hmm...

Last edited by agent; 10-05-2015 at 06:32 PM..

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Old 10-05-2015, 06:40 PM   #2
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

i'd say reaktor 6, no doubt. i don't own both but i've followed tutorials for Reaktor 5 just to learn a bit of the basics of DSP and the maths behind it, and reaktor appear to me so much more powerful and flexible than max4live. why? because reaktor offer several levels of code e.g. in reaktor you can work strictly with numbers and memory to build your own core bricks in the graphical environment. something that afaik is not possible with max4live.

edit : would definitely grab reaktor 6 if it was retro compatible with older apple OS, or if these new OS weren't so shit

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Old 10-05-2015, 07:22 PM   #3
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

I'd say Reaktor 6. Max for live seems flexible, but I've also found it to be strangely unstable. Most of my Ableton crashes and weird, "Where did all my settings go??" end up originating from Max 4 Live devices. That might just be my setup and something weird isn't getting along, but from my experience Reaktor is more stable.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:00 PM   #4
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andantonius View Post
I'd say Reaktor 6. Max for live seems flexible, but I've also found it to be strangely unstable. Most of my Ableton crashes and weird, "Where did all my settings go??" end up originating from Max 4 Live devices. That might just be my setup and something weird isn't getting along, but from my experience Reaktor is more stable.
Yeah I have several complex max for live sequencers running in unison, and my Live's "undo" history, gets all wonky, not to mention the errors as well.


thanks for the feedback!
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:56 PM   #5
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

I would say it depends on what you want to do. If you want a nice integration with Ableton then I'd obviously use max4live.
Also, why not just give it a try if you already have it anyway? There are some quality devices made in max4live. A prime example being the Granulator II by Robert Henke.

He also does most of his projects in Max4live or Max standalone so to me it seems like a lot can be done with max4live:

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There are also a couple of pretty cool Video projects for audio visualisation for max4live. They allow you to make visuals and VJ from within your Ableton projects. Search for "V-modules" and "Vizzable" if you want to find out more.

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Old 10-06-2015, 06:43 PM   #6
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

I've been learning Max for a couple of years and it's super powerful and fun once you get the basics. However, what pisses me off about it that it's very unstable, especially M4L, this might be more of Windows problem, I guess. Max 7 became better like you can recover your stuff after crash which was a big problem in Max 6. Another thing, Max is multi-functional, look into Jitter (graphics stuff) or Gen~ and that's a whole new level of depth, you can make video games, control anything.
I might be wrong but Reaktor is just audio stuff (?). I didn't like Reaktor 5 clumsiness at first and learning them both, Max and Reaktor 5, at once was just too much so I was mainly focusing on Max. But now when Reaktor 6 came out i'm like, whoa, that looks really fun, I must go Reaktor!

I like the idea about Reaktor and Max that you can deconstruct devices/ensembles. It doesn't require to know all stuff how this and that works and now when we have blocks in Reaktor 6 shit-making is easier. However, there are also some sort of building blocks that came with Max 7. Guys trying to make everything look simpler which is great. What I would do is probably go Reaktor 6 since you already mentioned that you have Max. I've learned some stuff in Max so now it's Reaktor 6 turn. Also, it runs better, at least for me.

edit: I'm not betraying Henke and my sensei mr. Harker (guy who made M4L Convolution Reverb), I swear, I'll still use Max, Alex!

Last edited by ms_; 10-06-2015 at 07:00 PM..

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:50 AM   #7
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

Thanks all for the info..

I've decided to go Reaktor, yes I have max, but mainly for the free devices at this time bc, I do find it cumbersome and don't have the time to delve into too much techy stuff like that right now.

My main love with M4L is the Ableton integration where certain devices can effect the way live functions, thats also where most of its issues probably stem from as well.

However, with Reaktor I see a little bit more future proofing as I am trying to slim down my tools I use to software that has multiple functions and is cross platform, so say if I go back to windows or decide on a new DAW, or standalone operation, I can just go to their website and download the latest version or save it to a hard drive and have a version I can run on any current supported OS.

Where as M4L is for M4L and devices made there, at least I dont think so, cant be exported to a VST for use in say Logic or Cubase.

I dont know if Reaktor can do video or move from a audio only environment on a coding level as Max can but thats not too much of a concern.

My main focus is audio effects and MIDI effects which Reaktor seem to have quality, stable and nice looking devices compared to M4L
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:24 AM   #8
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

My recommendation would be to get Max 7 AND Reaktor 6. I just don't think there's any point to using Max4Live without Max. I think Max's interface is a lot nicer than Max4Live's (clunky as fuck much?).

If it's M4L vs Reaktor. Then it's Reaktor. But Max vs Reaktor isn't so clear cut and the more I learn about each, the more I find myself using them together. Reaktor has its strengths, so does Max. And it's very easy to send data between one and the other and use their strengths in tandem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andantonius View Post
I'd say Reaktor 6. Max for live seems flexible, but I've also found it to be strangely unstable. Most of my Ableton crashes and weird, "Where did all my settings go??" end up originating from Max 4 Live devices. That might just be my setup and something weird isn't getting along, but from my experience Reaktor is more stable.
You need to dive deeper into the Reaktor User library if you think badly designed devices are exclusive to M4L. There are just as many examples of shoddy design in Reaktor. What's important is that you need to make the distinction between Max and the person who used it to create the device which crashed your computer. It's not the company's fault that people make mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
Yeah I have several complex max for live sequencers running in unison, and my Live's "undo" history, gets all wonky, not to mention the errors as well.
Like this for example. For some reason people make the mistake in thinking that Max4Live is a part of Ableton Live and not an additional software like a VST. Live's undo history doesn't handle any third party software very well in its undo history. Just fire up your favourite VST and start patching until you crash without saving to see what I mean. When Live recovers you get a nice INIT patch in place of the work you were actually doing.

Switching to Reaktor is not going to avoid these kinds of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by professurreal View Post
He also does most of his projects in Max4live or Max standalone so to me it seems like a lot can be done with max4live:
Another good point is that you can ditch M4L and use Max MSP on its own. Just like Reaktor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ms_ View Post
However, what pisses me off about it that it's very unstable, especially M4L, this might be more of Windows problem, I guess. Max 7 became better like you can recover your stuff after crash which was a big problem in Max 6.
One thing I will say about Reaktor 6 is that its error handling is much improved. Event Loops which would previously crash the system are halted and you're given a warning. But again, when people say that the programming languages are unstable, what they mean is that the people who design with them write buggy software... Unless you're talking about the application crashing when you do something arbitrary like hit "Save".


Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
I've decided to go Reaktor, yes I have max, but mainly for the free devices at this time bc, I do find it cumbersome and don't have the time to delve into too much techy stuff like that right now.
The main thing is to learn all of the shortcuts and efficiency gains. F10 for splitting the screen, for example. Also, bookmarks for moving around. Not to mention undocking the properties panel so you can position it anywhere on the screen (and widen it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
My main love with M4L is the Ableton integration where certain devices can effect the way live functions, thats also where most of its issues probably stem from as well.
Well, technically you can use Reaktor to control Live, or anything else. It's possible to build a device to send any kinds of MIDI messages you want to Live. It's also got really good OSC integration.

A project I'm working on at the moment for a club lighting system is pure Reaktor that involves zero audio or video. It's just an OSC parser. It takes OSC input and manipulates it in a certain way to allow more increased control of the Martin M-PC software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
Where as M4L is for M4L and devices made there, at least I dont think so, cant be exported to a VST for use in say Logic or Cubase.
Well they can. You just need to refactor them in Max and then export. It's not impossible. Probably not even difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
I dont know if Reaktor can do video or move from a audio only environment on a coding level as Max can but thats not too much of a concern.
Well Reaktor can't do any coding. It's a purely visual programming language. It can do visual stuff, however I think complex visualisations are better suited to Max than Reaktor. That being said, some of Antonio Blanca's work is pretty damn impressive.

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Old 10-17-2015, 12:13 AM   #9
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Re: Max 4 Live or Reaktor 6..?

Decided to take another look at the M4L library today, since I kinda got put off dealing with flaky stuff.

But since I get the gist of what everyone is saying here, that m4l flakiness is due to the nature of home brewed devices which reaktor encompasses as well, I figured I'd give it another look.

Some new good stuff in there, since last time I looked and perhaps M4L version 7 will add some needed stability as well.

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