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Old 28-09-2013, 01:56 AM   #21
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

But you are still arguing mass appeal or accessibility equals superiority which is just as foolish as claiming the opposite. Many members here don't like mainstream music, but I don't think its the popularity of the music they dislike its the simplicity. A lot of so called EDM is usually what gets ragged on. For me, its all pretty sameish even for dance music. The melodies, chords and sounds are very stripped down. I also personally dislike that ultra loud over compressed sound as it is very fatiguing.

On the other hand I can listen to both Skinny Puppy and NiN.

There is a lot of complex and less accessible music I don't care for but I can appreciate. Just as w modern EDM...I get why people like it but I just personally can't stand it.

There is a lot of art in the world whose audience is other artists...it might take a certain understanding of theory in that kind of art to appreciate...

Yea...that's what I want to say...its all about audience... pop artists are trying to reach a wide audience which requires a less complex approach to reach the widest audience possible. Other artists choose to be complex and choose to limit their possible audience. Neither is "bad" or "good" objectively. But subjectively not everyone is going to like everything.

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Old 28-09-2013, 02:00 AM   #22
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

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Originally Posted by Sincock View Post
Ridiculous thread is ridiculous.

Simple answer is that you have limited taste and want music to be catchy and hummable, ("good songwriting"), and therefore are not equipped to pass judgement on awesomeness like the Swans, Can, Stockhausen et al because you obviously don't get it.

(Pink Floyd don't have any meandering soundscapes in their music? Which albums are you listening to?)
Ok you wanted to insult me by calling the discussion ridiculous and trying to reduce my argument to me having limited taste and need to have my hand held by pop structured and cannot comprehend the later artists.

Heres are my points in response:
- I do listen to swans, can and stockhausen and have so for years. I also value their music for what it provides me with.

- I do feel that there are artists out there that have all the same strong points yet they seem to: organize their music better, have a larger volume of good songs vs self indulgent bullshit (tool vs king crimson) and are just possibly more thought out in their approach to putting together their albums or something.

Stockhausen and Aphex twin both create amazing textures and 3d spatial movements of sound. Stockhausen criticized aphex twin for catering to the dance crowd by using beats, I think the opposite is true. Aphex Twin just writes better songs. One artist has albums full of similar sounding swishes of beeps and sounds, the other has the same thing organized in a more diverse and aesthetic manner. Then again aphex twin has argued for this as well that for a piece to be good it must connect with people emotionally.


I suppose you can argue that the idea of "good music" should not just include the traditional sense of the emotional impact of a piece of music but then its almost like we are getting into pretentious cuntyness. I really question the honesty of someone saying a stockhausen piece is as emotional as Aphex Twin's Xtal or even the drukqs stuff.
Maybe things like radical experimentation, sound textures raw emotion etc (qualities undoubtably presented by those underground artists) should be there simply to serve the song. Maybe those artists kind of act as a base for better musicians (reznor, tool, aphex twin) to draw on for influence (or stealing some ideas if you want) so they can incorporate them and make music that will inspire many . Whats wrong with that ya bitch?
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Old 28-09-2013, 03:16 AM   #23
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryspencer View Post
Ok you wanted to insult me by calling the discussion ridiculous and trying to reduce my argument to me having limited taste and need to have my hand held by pop structured and cannot comprehend the later artists.

Heres are my points in response:
- I do listen to swans, can and stockhausen and have so for years. I also value their music for what it provides me with.

- I do feel that there are artists out there that have all the same strong points yet they seem to: organize their music better, have a larger volume of good songs vs self indulgent bullshit (tool vs king crimson) and are just possibly more thought out in their approach to putting together their albums or something.

Stockhausen and Aphex twin both create amazing textures and 3d spatial movements of sound. Stockhausen criticized aphex twin for catering to the dance crowd by using beats, I think the opposite is true. Aphex Twin just writes better songs. One artist has albums full of similar sounding swishes of beeps and sounds, the other has the same thing organized in a more diverse and aesthetic manner. Then again aphex twin has argued for this as well that for a piece to be good it must connect with people emotionally.


I suppose you can argue that the idea of "good music" should not just include the traditional sense of the emotional impact of a piece of music but then its almost like we are getting into pretentious cuntyness. I really question the honesty of someone saying a stockhausen piece is as emotional as Aphex Twin's Xtal or even the drukqs stuff.
Maybe things like radical experimentation, sound textures raw emotion etc (qualities undoubtably presented by those underground artists) should be there simply to serve the song. Maybe those artists kind of act as a base for better musicians (reznor, tool, aphex twin) to draw on for influence (or stealing some ideas if you want) so they can incorporate them and make music that will inspire many . Whats wrong with that ya bitch?
why can you not see that what you think of as better written music is just your opinion/tastes and what is self indulgent to you is prefered by other people

...the ones that can understand complex music

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Old 28-09-2013, 05:44 AM   #24
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Exactly;

My point being that assuming your taste = better is ridiculous therefore the discussion is somewhat ridiculous and as such worthy of ridicule.

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Old 28-09-2013, 09:09 AM   #25
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Yeah it's just about how much of that mental you're willing to sacrifice for listen ability.

The more popular artists you mentioned found a nice balance to make interesting music that the masses can enjoy too.

The more obscure artists you mentioned.. I don't think they're even capable of doing that.. and I don't think the idea even crosses their minds.
That's why the more popular artists are influenced so much by them.. because it's hard to not become too commercial I think weird artists who make beautiful things are a constant inspiration and reminder to stick to your guns.

Look at Daniel Johnston.. I feel like he's the best example.
As far as indie music goes his is the most unlistenably lo-fi, out of tune, out of key, no pop sensibility, schizophrenic, remarkably raw and honest shit out there full stop (Ok maybe Jandek and some other weirdos but let's just call it him). And that's precisely why the following artists have covered his material:
David Bowie, Tom Waits, Death cab for cutie, Gordon Gano, Beck, M. Ward, Eels, The Flaming Lips, Sparklehorse, Firehose, Spectrum and on and on and on and on
It reads like the line up to the biggest "weirdo" music festival in the world.. and this dude was an inspiration to these guys because they all know they could never write a song as crazy, yet still beautiful/simple as his. But man did they try, and they've all written some crazy/beautiful/simple songs if you take some time with their discographies.
But their covers of his songs.. it's their best shit.. listen to this..
It really brings out the beauty/simplicity of the composition and lyrics when it's put like this.

It's a case of two things
"Underground music"
which is influenced by
"Musician's musicians"
or pretty much crazy people
If that makes any sense

Last edited by ZheNhir; 28-09-2013 at 09:20 AM..

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Old 28-09-2013, 10:49 AM   #26
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

also not to beat a dead horse with NIN but there's just no end with these chaps..

the NIN logo, and use of lowercase backwards 'n'...
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again it's strangely similar to an underground 80s band called NON, who was never all that popular in the US or among more mainstream channels but
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you can point out these things all day long and the average NIN fan will continually dissuade all of it, casually saying things like he just took some infuences of things he like and blahblahblah but

ffs

to Reznor's credit he does have good taste in music at least..

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penguinoid (02-10-2014)
Old 28-09-2013, 11:09 AM   #27
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Is that really a case of them ripping off NON or is it just an easy marketing shock tactic to use a Russian-looking character in USA?
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Old 28-09-2013, 11:33 AM   #28
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

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Originally Posted by lolirl View Post
Is that really a case of them ripping off NON or is it just an easy marketing shock tactic to use a Russian-looking character in USA?
if anything, i would guess he ripped off non for an easy marketing tactic. I could be mistaken, it's all up for debate I suppose. I used to like NIN actually, when I was around 13, but it began to seem at some point that he relied heavily on this 'illusion' like that he's a one-man-band or something. It's like the more you look into it none of what he does seems to be even remotely original..to me at anyways.

Last edited by hellscion; 28-09-2013 at 11:33 AM.. Reason: contradiction d'oh

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Old 28-09-2013, 01:25 PM   #29
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Daniel Johnston is a great example to discuss in this context.

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Old 02-10-2014, 02:35 AM   #30
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

*edit* forgot HenrySpencer ragequit a while back, so I guess this is just shouting into a void, but here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryspencer View Post
A warm place (reznors instrumental piece) just shits all over any of those masturbatory sound scapes some of those less known artists seem to like throwing into their albums.
Sorry to resurrect this (not sorry), ran across it in the "similar threads" box, see, personally, I would like to start with your title, because you are making a comparison between "unique" underground artists, and "unique" well known artists, and my problem with that assertion as regarding Reznor is that he is blatantly derivative of his influences, not even something as benign as "he borrowed influences" derivative, more that he just straight up copied them, as has been inferred above by way of the NON logo discussion, but I would like to elaborate on those ideas, starting with your suggestion that A Warm Place craps all over the aforementioned artists, the most obvious problem with that example being that NIN outright stole that track from David Bowie's Crystal Japan:



Pursuant to this, "Down In It" is just Skinny Puppy's "Dig It" except the lyrics were replaced, and include a nursery rhyme (rain rain go away), and the chorus, which reads: "na na na na na na na na na na na na na na" is this what you consider "unique"?



the intro to "Something I Can Never Have" was from Swans' "In My Garden"



and most of NIN's early sound just kinda apes Cabaret Voltaire.



Quote:
Originally Posted by henryspencer View Post
as well as having a unique sound .
^ that's why I personally think those artists are way better! While musical taste is subjective, what is not is the above demonstrated reality that a a fair bit of NIN music is clearly derivative. It's easier to write "great songs" when somebody else has already done a fair bit of the work for you! I was somewhat into NIN as a teen, but over time, as my musical tastes expanded, and I started hearing all the passages he took from other artists, I began to realize my favorite bits of NIN songs (like the intro to Something I Can Never Have, the entirety of "Down In It", and "A Warm Place") were not even his own ideas. I think I also just tire really quickly of Trent's lyrics, it all sounds like a high school English class assignment on how to use antonyms that he wrote right after his girlfriend dumped him.

In summation:



^ @ 4 minutes in, dat build! hnnnggg! It just keeps on going, building in intensity and the second you think it couldn't possibly get any more heavy, it just keeps on building, then it drops back into this hypnotic droning pause, and goes right back into building up again. Amazing track!

sorry, I lost focus, what I meant to say was: "But inside there lives the sound, you despise, but I love..."

Last edited by penguinoid; 03-10-2014 at 01:36 AM..
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:45 PM   #31
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

henryspencer quit IDMF?

I just want to point out that he has the most consistently interesting threads.

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Old 03-10-2014, 06:01 PM   #32
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

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henryspencer quit IDMF?
witness the descent into madness:

http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=132589

Last edited by penguinoid; 03-10-2014 at 06:08 PM..
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:57 PM   #33
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

lol way to overreact guys

offtopic, I played guitar once on some Ben Frost live project. One hour of one power chord on every 1/8, that was a surreal experience.

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Old 03-10-2014, 09:42 PM   #34
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Re: unique underground artists vs unique well known (swans, can vs tool, pink floyd)

Every thread ive ever seen you make has centred around a pointless/silly question. This is the least pointless one and its still pointless as fuck

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