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Old 15-02-2015, 02:02 PM   #21
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

MFB Kraftzwerg, Microzwerg and Doepfer Dark Energy are options not mentioned in this thread yet, within very agreeable price ranges. As a general rule Doepfer products are more "modern" than MFB. Waldorf Pulse, Dave Smith Mopho and Dave Smith Evolver are others, but do not have the one-knob-per-function interface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnork View Post
I wouldnīt recommend the MS-20 mini though if you actually want the MS-20 sound, as especially the filters sound quite nasal compared to the original.
The MS-20 Mini filters are built after MS-20 Mk1, rather than the latter MS-20 Mk2 filters. Mk1/Mini filters are much more aggressive, whereas the Mk2 sports a smoother tone. The mini certainly has attitude and is great for aggressive sounds, but it might indeed be a bit.. Too aggressive/high-oriented for more smooth sounds and low basses. The main difference between the mini and Mk1 is volume. The oscillators are a bit louder, so the filters overdrive easier. The difference really is minor, but it certainly is there. The difference between Mini and Mk2 on the other hand is night and day. There are comparison videos on YouTube by PerfectCircuitAudio (Mk2 vs Mini) and AudioCentralMagazine (Mk1 vs Mini) that demonstrate this.

Either way, it is a very solid synth even if it is noisy. It's aggressive, wild, and definitely very analogue in that regard. As in as far from most digital softsynths as you could get. Unlike the Arturia Microbrute, which might as well be VA.

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Originally Posted by Evelon View Post
A "real" synth? Gotta love quotation marks.
To be fair, Buchla systems are not real synths. They are NASA Space Audio Magic. They don't even have real keyboards, but those flimsy flamsy make-believe touch-keyboards. And what is that 252e Polyphonic Rhythm Generator even trying to be? Lord of the Rings? I totally do not want one of those toys. Like, at all.

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Old 15-02-2015, 02:11 PM   #22
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

I've been wanting a MFB Kraftzwerg for a while now...

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Old 15-02-2015, 03:25 PM   #23
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

I kind of wonder what bit resolution the knobs on digitally controlled virtual analog or analog synths have these days. I mean, most software instruments seem to stick to the midi standard 7 bits. But, I wish someone would make a synth where every knob had more resolution than that. 7 bits of resolution means it's impossible to tune a perfect just/pythagorean interval, and it means there are far fewer options for keysynced lfos. Wish someone would make a semi modular software or hardware synth where the knobs have at least 14 bit resolution.

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Old 15-02-2015, 03:28 PM   #24
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

I myself don't feel the need to buy one. A nice MIDI-Keyboard and a VST just does the same for me.
It takes too much space and is expensive for me.
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Old 15-02-2015, 04:51 PM   #25
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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The Microbrute could as well be VA? I havenīt played it yet myself, but does it really sound so VA?

Btw, thanks for the enlightenment regarding MS-20 Filters

Last edited by Schnork; 15-02-2015 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: Squelch
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Old 15-02-2015, 05:05 PM   #26
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Originally Posted by TheWizar View Post
I kind of wonder what bit resolution the knobs on digitally controlled virtual analog or analog synths have these days.
Optimism case: None whatsoever. Behind the knob is a potentiometer or a rotary encoder, which still has no resolution on it's own. The rotary encoder either sends data to the digital system about how much the knob was turned and into what direction, the knob can be turned around as many times as you want so technically it has infinite range. The digital system behind it has the resolution. Potentiometers reduce the voltage through them based on the position of the knob, and this analog technically infinite resolution control voltage then goes through Analog-to-Digital converter. Here it is about the precision of the ADC, and the digital system behind it. In other words, the firmware is the only thing limiting you. Multiplying DAC also can get pretty silly resolutions, depending on your microcontrollers.

Sad case: Using digital potentiometers, especially single-turn ones, you get complete garbage. 256 taps are the standard, and 1024 exists but it's rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizar View Post
I mean, most software instruments seem to stick to the midi standard 7 bits.
u-He bazille for one allows much more precise tuning, and it certainly isn't the only one. Sytrus and Harmor allow for god knows how precise tuning in ratios. (Probably 32-bit integer.)

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Originally Posted by TheWizar View Post
7 bits of resolution means it's impossible to tune a perfect just/pythagorean interval.
Completely depends on the range of the control has. 7 bits allows for one-semitone tuning across 21.25 octaves. Adding a finetune knob into this allows for +-100 cents, allowing tuning within a single cent across a ridiculous range. Some synths, such as the aforementioned Sytrus, allow you to express your intervals as ratios, which is pretty convenient.

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Originally Posted by TheWizar View Post
Wish someone would make a semi modular software or hardware synth where the knobs have at least 14 bit resolution.
Literally anything that is fully analogue, I.E: Not digitally controlled. If it can save/load patches it doesn't fall under this category. Even some digital ones though: Mungo Enterprises makes a range of eurorack modules that have some completely absurd ranges and resolutions, through endless rotary encoders. Alesis Ion, and I believe Alesis Andromeda A6 are others. Moog Voyager if used as a controller uses doubled MIDI standard to attempt to send 14 bits to MIDI devices, though the AD converter is only 12. (Though this might cause problems with softsynths not expecting this.)

Trying to map software to a hardware controller which sends MIDI is of course confined to 7 bits, unless it is a fancy one that doubles the CC. And then it's about your software interpreting it right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by Schnork View Post
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The Microbrute could as well be VA? I havenīt played it yet myself, but does it really sound so VA?
It does not necessarily sound VA. It sounds bland. This is partly due to the oscillators being really good in the engineering sense, partly due to the way the filter overdrives into a rather muffled tone. The way the oscillators interact, I.E: the squares being out of phase with the saw, adds extra options for modulation but ends up with a bit of a thinner sound as a result. The Metallizer on the triangle wave is a fantastic idea, but it is one part that actually sounds digital despite being analog. The whole device is certainly utility over sound.

It is neat if you want something to just play because it packs tons of features into a small space, but it does not add that much sonic capability to a studio centered around software. If you are not short on processing power on your computer, get u-He Diva instead. It does the analog sounds you could get out of Microbrute better, with more bite and crunch to them.

Last edited by Blingley; 15-02-2015 at 05:31 PM..

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Old 15-02-2015, 05:32 PM   #27
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Originally Posted by Schnork View Post
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The Microbrute could as well be VA? I havenīt played it yet myself, but does it really sound so VA?

Btw, thanks for the enlightenment regarding MS-20 Filters
I think the MiniBrute and MicroBrute are actually analong, not virtual analog. So they don't have a way to save patches. You have to adjust the knobs to recreate sounds each time, perhaps using a paper template to remind you of where they need to be set.
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Old 15-02-2015, 05:42 PM   #28
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Originally Posted by Stich View Post
I think the MiniBrute and MicroBrute are actually analong, not virtual analog. So they don't have a way to save patches. You have to adjust the knobs to recreate sounds each time, perhaps using a paper template to remind you of where they need to be set.
Oh, they are analog all right. Just.. Bland analog. Being analog does not mean it necessarily sounds good. It is also completely possible to set up analog signal path with patch saving, you just need a digital interface to control the analog components through control voltage. If this is not acceptable, no analog polysynths have ever existed, since the voice allocation is implemented digitally. (Bar maybe some patches on modular systems with multiple sequences running, but not sure if that counts.)

EDIT: I should be fair to Arturia. The microbrute does not sound bad, it just doesn't have much of the wild characteristics that would make me go into analogue to get to.

Last edited by Blingley; 15-02-2015 at 05:47 PM..

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Old 15-02-2015, 05:47 PM   #29
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

minibrute, microbrute or ms20-mini all sound like an interesting first step int this territory... the patching possibilities of the ms-20 seem really sweet. Micro brute might be a bit constrained so the minibrute might be more what I would be looking for. It has aftertouch which is something I like very much...

Then there is the Dark Energy II which I wasn't aware of before - and that looks awesome too. The small form factor would be a huge plus for me. Also the price is really sweet.

I'm pretty sure by now I want one... I just need to decide on where to start (there's always the ebay gear rotation)
MS20 or DEII are my current top contenders I think.

Again thanks for all the great suggestions!
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Old 15-02-2015, 05:54 PM   #30
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich View Post
I think the MiniBrute and MicroBrute are actually analong, not virtual analog. So they don't have a way to save patches. You have to adjust the knobs to recreate sounds each time, perhaps using a paper template to remind you of where they need to be set.
Yes thank you, Iīm aware of that Actually I was referring to the way it sounds
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Old 15-02-2015, 06:21 PM   #31
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

+1 for the Blofeld. Capable of some fantastic, unique sounds, and is a brilliant learning tool thanks to visual feedback and layout. If you want to go down the cheap analogue route, there's the Pulse 2 (also by Waldorf) and the DSI Mopho/Tetra.

If you're going to make the leap to entry level hardware, you may as well go for something that has some character to it. I don't know how inspiring it's going to be moving from an abundance of plugins to a microkorg or one of these new ultra-rudimentary entry-level analogue synths, especially once the "real analogue and lots of knobs for Ģ300!!" novelty wears off. That said, something like the MS20 or Dark Energy might be worth investing in if you intend on ever going modular.

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Old 15-02-2015, 07:31 PM   #32
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

get a drum kit.

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Old 15-02-2015, 07:48 PM   #33
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Originally Posted by Blingley View Post
The MS-20 Mini filters are built after MS-20 Mk1, rather than the latter MS-20 Mk2 filters. Mk1/Mini filters are much more aggressive, whereas the Mk2 sports a smoother tone. The mini certainly has attitude and is great for aggressive sounds, but it might indeed be a bit.. Too aggressive/high-oriented for more smooth sounds and low basses. The main difference between the mini and Mk1 is volume. The oscillators are a bit louder, so the filters overdrive easier. The difference really is minor, but it certainly is there. The difference between Mini and Mk2 on the other hand is night and day. There are comparison videos on YouTube by PerfectCircuitAudio (Mk2 vs Mini) and AudioCentralMagazine (Mk1 vs Mini) that demonstrate this.

Either way, it is a very solid synth even if it is noisy. It's aggressive, wild, and definitely very analogue in that regard.
I agreed on that. I own a mini myself and i bought it because i wanted this harsh and noisy character. If you want to get rid of it, there are 2 ways. Buy the MS-20 kit. This one has both filters and you can switch between them or buy a filter unit and select the character you want dynamically.

I normally have a Vermona Filter Lancet directly behind my MS-20mini. I can bypass when i want the direct noise. I can add a lowpass and soften the character or i can change the character in various ways by modulating the filter with the envelop and/or the LFO the lancet includes. It also has a distortion and input saturation that lets me go over the top... and so on.

Now... for the price of both hardware pieces, i could buy myself a ms-20 kit. But i like this combination far more. It just has far more options.

A warning regarding the filter of the filter lancet. This one is the complete opposite of a MS-20 filter. One could say it has a extremly clean sound or even harder -> it sounds totally sterilized.

For me, that is excatly what i needed for my MS-20, because it contrasts the filter character of it extremly well in my opinion.

I would not advise using a filter lancet for any synth that lacks character, it possibly will make them sound worse.

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Old 15-02-2015, 09:07 PM   #34
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Originally Posted by Automageddon View Post
But you still play a real guitar, why not replacing it with multisamples too?
If it were cheaper to get a full sized midi keyboard and a kontakt library, I'd do that. It would pretty much sound the same once I learned it in and out, and I feel like this applies to synths, too. Unless somebody just likes the gear aspect.
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Old 15-02-2015, 10:19 PM   #35
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

Awww... I wish they were still making the Microzwerg... Nanozwerg and DarkEnergy (II) only have a single VCO - otherwise I think those would be perfect.
Any suggestions in that category with two oscillators?

Mono Lancet looks nice - Psychotronic was complaining about the lack of character in the Filter Lancet... are those the same filters?

Last edited by VoidPointer; 15-02-2015 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 16-02-2015, 12:00 AM   #36
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Mono Lancet looks nice - Psychotronic was complaining about the lack of character in the Filter Lancet... are those the same filters?
He wasn't really complaining about it, but no. Filter Lancet is some kind of Vermona-original design, and Mono Lancet is Moog-inspired ladder filter. Source: Vermona site.

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Old 16-02-2015, 01:01 AM   #37
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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He wasn't really complaining about it, but no. Filter Lancet is some kind of Vermona-original design, and Mono Lancet is Moog-inspired ladder filter. Source: Vermona site.
True. I read it as a "warning" because I very much like the MS20 filter... Thanks for the info - I think that makes it either Mono Lancent or MS-20
I still think, from a synth perspective, the MS-20 would be the winner but the smaller form factor of the Lancet would be a huge plus for the way I work...
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Old 16-02-2015, 01:55 AM   #38
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

Whats your budget? Without knowing, being as your now talking analog I'll suggest this, the [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

Retails for 699 euro but...I've seen them on eBay here in the states for 500 American.


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Old 16-02-2015, 12:17 PM   #39
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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Whats your budget? Without knowing, being as your now talking analog I'll suggest this, the [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

Retails for 699 euro but...I've seen them on eBay here in the states for 500 American.
That's a mighty sweet machine, but I think I constrain myself to a price point below EUR 500 for the first experiments. I found a good deal on the Mono Lancet (EUR 333 new) and I think I will go for that...
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Old 16-02-2015, 01:21 PM   #40
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Re: Should I get a "real" synth?

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for the first experiments.


... i can see perfectly clear what you're thinking right now.


My advice is the following:

Why dont you go to the justmusic store or any other music store in your town and test both hardware pieces. You can perfectly sit there for some hours and test out 2 or 3 synths that you might want to buy. You can also ask someone in the store to get a test drive for a machine that they don't have in the store right now, they will get one from another store and have it ready for testing some days later. You are also not forced to buy anything. You can just test drive, they have a bunch of synths circling around the country from store to store for exactly that purpose.

Consulting the internet is one thing, but laying hands on a synth is another.

Oh and do not forget to bring some headphones that you trust.

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