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Old 12-04-2015, 07:55 PM   #1
Benwaa
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music theory help

I'm super shit with proper music theory s i need to ask for some help.
I want to know what this means in letters as opposed to chord numbers please

iv6 - iio6 - i - iv6 - V/V - i6 - [Fr 43 - V] of iv


maybe give the example in Em or Am or something as i know those keys well

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Old 12-04-2015, 08:28 PM   #2
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Re: music theory help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benwaa View Post
I'm super shit with proper music theory s i need to ask for some help.
I want to know what this means in letters as opposed to chord numbers please

iv6 - iio6 - i - iv6 - V/V - i6 - [Fr 43 - V] of iv
It's relative to the scale you're in. The roman numerals denote the degree of the scale. So, in A minor, the fourth would be D minor. Usually, with these, lowercase denotes a minor chord and uppercase denotes a major chord. The number are added bits, of course. So, in A minor again, a iv6 would be a Dm6

EDIT: Oh, also... there it says "iio6" which is usually written as "ii6" which denotes a diminished chord. So, Bdim6

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Old 12-04-2015, 11:32 PM   #3
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Re: music theory help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benwaa View Post
I want to know what this means in letters as opposed to chord numbers please

iv6 - iio6 - i - iv6 - V/V - i6 - [Fr 43 - V] of iv

maybe give the example in Em or Am or something as i know those keys well
what candlesayshi said and a little more:

-The 6 means you add a major sixth to the chord. Starting on 1 on the root, count six notes. (A B C D E F G >> the sixth of B for example is G). Then for it to be major, it should be 1 and 1/2 tone under the root.

-"V/V" means "five of five". So the fifth degree of the tonic, well the fifth degree of that one
-"FR 4 3 (four and three should be written on top of each other) is a "French sixth" chord. It usually resolves on V like it does here so you could think of it as a chromatic approach to a V7 chord. Basically, take a V7 and turn all the notes up a semi-tone. That's not absolutely "correct" but that's more or less what a French sixth chord is about.
- and you do that FR4/3 - V relating to the fourth degree. So FR4/3 that resolves on the V of iv, that in its turn resolves on iv.

Hopefully some of that makes sense?

Here's what it is in A minor
Dm6 - B - Am - Dm6 - B - Am6 - [Bb 7b5 - A]

where is it from?

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Old 12-05-2015, 12:35 AM   #4
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Re: music theory help

thanks guys, i kind of understand a bit more now. gonna have to read that FR thing a few times i think lol
It's from a thing i was reading about chord progressions but it all looked far too over my head in that format and no explanation in the article, so thought id better educate meself better
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Old 12-05-2015, 01:14 AM   #5
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Re: music theory help

Are we sure that those numbers aren't inversions instead of extensions? The number indicating that there is a 6th above the bass note, not the root note.

for instance the iv6 would be a first inversion chord, Dmin with an F in the bass.

I think in this case it would be more common to interpret the numbers as inversions rather than adding a sixth to the chord, espically with the french chord.

Last edited by Dataf1ow; 12-05-2015 at 02:26 AM..

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Old 12-05-2015, 01:43 AM   #6
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Re: music theory help

oh I think you're right. It's all classical chord naming. The 6 means the first inversion of the chord.
So Dm instead of being D F A is going to be F D A (with the third in the bass)

The B diminished with a 6th didn't make sense, now it does.

P.S. it's labeled "6" because the interval between the third in the bass and the root note is a 6th

Last edited by Lug; 12-05-2015 at 01:53 AM..

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Old 12-18-2015, 09:01 AM   #7
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Re: music theory help

Good Infos! Thanks

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Old 12-20-2015, 02:15 AM   #8
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Re: music theory help

I don't know about that, vashina. I feel like it's something to do with classical vs. jazz/"pop" notation. I've never seen the inversion notated next to either a chord or a roman numeral in jazz progressions.

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Old 12-20-2015, 04:09 AM   #9
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Re: music theory help

I always thought the number represented the chord interval. So IV6 would be 6th, IV7 would be Maj7 etc...

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Old 12-20-2015, 11:46 AM   #10
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Re: music theory help

I'm going to be honest, it's still all a little over my head at the moment. I really need to learn this stuff though it seems.
Thanks for all your help on this, it has helped me a lot, just I'm still a chord notation virgin obviously
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:45 AM   #11
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Re: music theory help

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Originally Posted by vashima View Post
It can either mean the interval from tonic or the interval from the bass. It depends on the context. Lettered notation is normally from tonic. Roman numeral is normally from the bass.
Sorry, I still think you're totally wrong. It makes no sense to use a number to indicate where the inversion starts.

Think about it. This would mean that you would have to calculate the numerical value against the scale's root for every single chord. So if you wanted to express the same inversion moving up a scale you'd have to write:

I6, ii7, iii1, IV2, V3, vi4, vii5

I would really like to see some references discussing what you're saying because, logically, it makes zero sense. What happens if you change key? What happens if you transpose? You would literally have to rewrite every chord which defeats the purpose of using numeral notation in the first place.

My understanding has always been that you use lowercase letters to denote an inversion. So first inversion would be IVb, second would be IVc and so on. An accompanying number indicates additional notes beyond the Triad. That's also what every reference I can refer to says as well.

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Old 12-21-2015, 03:56 AM   #12
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Re: music theory help

uh. No, Jaded, a 6 next to the roman numeral indicating the first inversion is very often used in classical music; it's very specific to classical chord naming but it does exist.

as I said earlier, the first inversion of D minor would be FDA instead of DFA. The interval between F and D is a sixth. Hence "6". Sometimes it's "6 3" (with 6 and 3 on top of each other) but the 3 is often dropped and leaves only "6" written next to the numeral.

We also thought of the option of 6 meaning added sixth, like it is very often notated in jazz and popular music. But the "FR 4 3" chord clearly suggests classical chord naming.

Also another important element that suggests the "6" here doesn't mean "added sixth" is that we have a diminshed chord with "6" written next to it. But a diminshed seventh and a major sixth is the same interval. It makes no sense to add a major sixth to a diminished chord. If we understand the symbol "6" as meaning "first inversion", it does make sense.

edit : can I link to wiki for a reference or is it not valid
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

Last edited by Lug; 12-21-2015 at 04:08 AM..

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Old 12-21-2015, 04:06 AM   #13
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Re: music theory help

^ Thanks mang! That explanation makes much more sense to me

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Originally Posted by God*

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* I am not God.
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Old 12-21-2015, 04:09 AM   #14
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Re: music theory help

Think the other problem with discussing musical notation on a forum is that we don't have <sup>superscript</sup>

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Old 12-21-2015, 04:14 AM   #15
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Re: music theory help

ha yes I think vashima got a little confused up there. I think all the information needed in this thread was basically given in the five first posts

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Old 12-21-2015, 04:16 AM   #16
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Re: music theory help

Is it even possible to have a thread about theory without tangents ensuing?

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Old 01-02-2017, 10:51 PM   #17
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Re: music theory help

The 6 does not mean add a major 6. It means the triad is in its first inversion. 6/4 means the triad is in its second inversion.

In every major scale there are 3 Primary chords (I,IV,V) they are capitilized because they represent major triads in the major scale

There are also 3 secondary chords (ii,iii,vi) in every major scale. They are not capitilized because they are representing the minor triads in the major scale

And there is one diminished triad in every major scale represented by vii o. The o represents a diminished triad. Diminished triads have minor 3rds for both intervals. Not used as commonly in today's music


The key of Gmaj will be used for this example, Em is the relative minor for Gmaj

Cmaj = IV in Gmaj scale

G=I
A=ii
B=iii
C=IV
D=V
E=vi
F#dim=viio


IV= C
G
E
C <------ bass note

IV6= C/E
C
G
E<------- Bass note

IV6/4= C/G
E
C
G<-------- Bass note

When using an inverted chord, the only note that truly matters is the bass note to determine what inversion it is in.

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Old 03-15-2017, 04:21 PM   #18
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Re: music theory help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug View Post
[Bb 7b5 - A]
Hi man can you explain this just a little more? do you just indicate that it's a B flat major chord playing with a 7b5 chord and then modulating to A?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug View Post
oh I think you're right. It's all classical chord naming. The 6 means the first inversion of the chord.
So Dm instead of being D F A is going to be F D A (with the third in the bass)
couldn't the first inversion of Dm also be F A D? does that depend on the harmony? (just want to get that clear)

Last edited by aLiner; 03-15-2017 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:39 PM   #19
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Re: music theory help

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Originally Posted by aLiner View Post
Hi man can you explain this just a little more? do you just indicate that it's a B flat major chord playing with a 7b5 chord and then modulating to A?
hey aLiner,
So, yes there are only two chords in those brackets. First one is Bb7b5, it's a B flat major chord with a minor seventh and diminished fifth.
It doesn't modulate on A. Bb7/A is a II V that then resolves on Dm.
II V I is a very typical chord progression (90% of any jazz tune).
Strictly speaking, a II V I in D should be E/A/D but here we have the equivalent of what you could call a tritone substitution on the II. Bb is substituted for E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aLiner View Post
couldn't the first inversion of Dm also be F A D? does that depend on the harmony? (just want to get that clear)
The first inversion of Dm absolutely is FAD. That's a mistake on my part. When you do an inversion, you pop the the note on the bass an octave higher. So DFA becomes FAD. The rest of my posts is still valid, though :3

hope this all clears it up

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Old 03-17-2017, 09:04 PM   #20
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Re: music theory help

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Originally Posted by Lug View Post
The first inversion of Dm absolutely is FAD. That's a mistake on my part. When you do an inversion, you pop the the note on the bass an octave higher. So DFA becomes FAD. The rest of my posts is still valid, though :3
I guess it can be interpreted pretty much the same though, FAD and FDA.
But if I see FDA, I somehow assume that the A is an octave higher haha

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