Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things
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Old 29-07-2016, 04:16 AM   #1
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Icon2 Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...orld_secu.html

Quote:
...
The next president will probably be forced to deal with a large-scale Internet disaster that kills multiple people. I hope he or she responds with both the recognition of what government can do that industry can't, and the political will to make it happen.
...
This is an excellent piece about why to TURN OFF THE "INTERNET OF THINGS" BEFORE IT TURNS OFF SOCIETY.

I agree with this wholeheartedly and apparently this is a concern of the NSA and director of national intelligence in USA.

We need to be mentally prepared about this stuff so we aren't victimized by the gear and that maybe we as technically-adept people maybe we have some nice tools and techniques to resist the chaos of the business world pushing the IOT down our throats despite the huge risks.

Peace. I hope you will read this in completion at your leisure.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...orld_secu.html

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Old 29-07-2016, 05:09 AM   #2
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Nys, your computer is watching you. They know what you're up to.

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Old 29-07-2016, 05:17 AM   #3
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

https://twitter.com/internetofshit

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Old 29-07-2016, 06:26 AM   #4
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

YEA FUCK YOU INTERNET

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Old 29-07-2016, 06:54 AM   #5
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

I had a really long rant about reasons why I was against the IOT, then the killer point hit me: I don't want trojan to know how fast I finish .
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:23 AM   #6
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

The internet of things is awesome. I'll be able to get next door's fridge to pay for my milk.

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Old 29-07-2016, 09:48 AM   #7
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

just buy used stuff like i do. if not possible, jailbreak the shit out of everything and limit its reach. discard services that require you to own iot shit.

since real income is going down the drain for the majority of the populaation, noone will be able to afford this shit without subsidiaries anyway.

at least in germany, relevant parts of the infrastructure are being kept offline

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Old 29-07-2016, 02:22 PM   #8
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

I"m all for turning off society myself.
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:44 PM   #9
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

I personally can't wait for a future where our cars can drive themselves. Finally, I'll have time to text on the way to work like nature intended.

At least if my car is tracked, BTW, they can track the guy who stole it, too. If I can opt for a tracking device for my brain, I'd volunteer / pay for that as well. Then someone will finally believe me about these routine alien abductions.

And if I have the braintracking device that I made up, I hope it also has the internet and Google as the homepage. Bing in my brain would drive me nuts.

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Old 30-07-2016, 05:12 AM   #10
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

The thing about IoT is that it's only an issue if you actually plug the thing into the internet. But then, that's no different to the current things, like phones and computers, that we already plug into the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nystagmus View Post
I agree with this wholeheartedly and apparently this is a concern of the NSA and director of national intelligence in USA.
Yeah. The problem I have with the text you quoted is that, in the current climate, if "governments did what industry can't", well then the net result is that we would increase the likelihood of such a doomsday scenario occurring.

In the last year:
  • The UK government proposed outlawing encryption for private citizens.
  • The FBI tried to petition a tech company to implement backdoors to their encryption systems.
  • The Australian government implement mandatory data retention for all internet users.

Meanwhile, in the industry:
  • The internet giants and the W3c have proposed adopting HTTPS over HTTP on all requests.
  • Apple and [Insert Linux Distro Here] have implemented storage encryption by default on all OS's.
  • Apple, Google, Internode, EFF, [insert company or industry body here] have all petitioned governments around the world in opposition of data retention, regulated backdoors and bans on encryption.

The other big problem I have with this is that, for all the talk of security and computer vulnerabilities and software faults, the author said nothing about the biggest most harmful vulnerability in the whole system: the user.

In the 21st century, I find it really weird that if somebody walks out of their house and doesn't lock the front door, or uses a lock that's inadequate and easily picked... If they come home and their house is trashed or they've been robbed then our response is, "Well yeah, you left the door wide open! What did you expect?" Then at the same time, we blame [insert tech service here] when our accounts get hacked because our password for everything is "otherkin" and all of our social media accounts are full of references to the otherkin community...

So if we want to prevent this internet of things from killing everything, then the best thing we can do is educate the people around us about taking responsibility for their personal security.

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Old 30-07-2016, 05:25 AM   #11
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
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I"m all for turning off society myself.
Top-right corner, click "Hide all from this user".

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Old 30-07-2016, 05:36 AM   #12
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Format c: /s ?

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Old 30-07-2016, 06:03 AM   #13
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Icon6 Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
The thing about IoT is that it's only an issue if you actually plug the thing into the internet. But then, that's no different to the current things, like phones and computers, that we already plug into the internet.

Yeah. The problem I have with the text you quoted is that, in the current climate, if "governments did what industry can't", well then the net result is that we would increase the likelihood of such a doomsday scenario occurring.

In the last year:
  • The UK government proposed outlawing encryption for private citizens.
  • The FBI tried to petition a tech company to implement backdoors to their encryption systems.
  • The Australian government implement mandatory data retention for all internet users.

Meanwhile, in the industry:
  • The internet giants and the W3c have proposed adopting HTTPS over HTTP on all requests.
  • Apple and [Insert Linux Distro Here] have implemented storage encryption by default on all OS's.
  • Apple, Google, Internode, EFF, [insert company or industry body here] have all petitioned governments around the world in opposition of data retention, regulated backdoors and bans on encryption.

The other big problem I have with this is that, for all the talk of security and computer vulnerabilities and software faults, the author said nothing about the biggest most harmful vulnerability in the whole system: the user.

In the 21st century, I find it really weird that if somebody walks out of their house and doesn't lock the front door, or uses a lock that's inadequate and easily picked... If they come home and their house is trashed or they've been robbed then our response is, "Well yeah, you left the door wide open! What did you expect?" Then at the same time, we blame [insert tech service here] when our accounts get hacked because our password for everything is "otherkin" and all of our social media accounts are full of references to the otherkin community...

So if we want to prevent this internet of things from killing everything, then the best thing we can do is educate the people around us about taking responsibility for their personal security.
Thanks for a serious and thoughtful response. I will think about what you've said. The only part I minorly disagree with you about is the FBI. It wasn't a mandated "backdoor" if you thoroughly read the legal papers and the deep technical discussions about the hows and not the whys. But that's mostly moot now. And I appreciate everything else you said. And I have no beef with the FBI trying to apprehend terrorists using technologies in honor of reducing mass murder. You brought up several good points.

What are your other thoughts about possible ways the IoT could be technically tricky?

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Old 30-07-2016, 07:49 AM   #14
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nystagmus View Post
What are your other thoughts about possible ways the IoT could be technically tricky?
I don't see it as being any different to any other technology products. You look at the cheap end of the scale where the barrier to entry is really low (Windows / Android) you see a lot of vulnerable systems which are prone to errors and malware injection and all this other nasty shit because users are given heaps of permission without any knowledge of the responsibility. Then you look at systems with high barriers to entry (Apple = $ / Linux = elbow grease) you generally don't see those kinds of problems anywhere near as often.

Like I can setup my girlfriend (who knows nothing about computers) with a Mac OS or Linux install where her admin rights are restricted and I can rest assured that she's not going to break anything or install anything which could compromise her computer or my home nets. More than that, I am pretty confident that if she connects to public or work nets then she's not going to bring home any STD's.

I think it's pretty much the same with IoT and I would say:
  • Open source options are definitely preferable to pre-compiled proprietary binaries.
  • Consumers should have unrestricted access to the systems that run their personal things and be able to control what data is sent and where it's sent to and what software it uses.
  • Devices should be able to be limited to transmit data on local networks only using open API's and serialisation methods which can easily be collected, interpreted and manipulated by the user as they see fit.

Bear in mind that I'm not talking about public use cases (such as self-driving cars), I'm simply talking about things around the home.

With cars for example, then a lot of the requirements for safety and security are the opposite. Like car OS's should be completely locked down and restricted to user interface functions... But that's a story for another post.

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Old 30-07-2016, 08:27 AM   #15
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
Originally Posted by 666 View Post
At least if my car is tracked, BTW, they can track the guy who stole it, too.
Only if they are too dumb to remove basic tracking devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
  • Apple and [Insert Linux Distro Here] have implemented storage encryption by default on all OS's.
  • Apple, Google, Internode, EFF, [insert company or industry body here] have all petitioned governments around the world in opposition of data retention, regulated backdoors and bans on encryption.
But Apple was completely fine giving away contact information of someone who actually threatened their business model. (But not those of a terrorist.). The companies want to keep data confidential so they can have access to it, while restricting the access of governments to it. This gives them leverage when negotiating and lobbying future laws. It also allows them to ignore the law and determine the access to data on a business-decision level.

So, honestly, fuck everyone, ban all non-open source and free/donationware software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
You look at the cheap end of the scale where the barrier to entry is really low (Windows / Android) you see a lot of vulnerable systems which are prone to errors and malware injection and all this other nasty shit because users are given heaps of permission without any knowledge of the responsibility.
"Heaps of permission" on Windows basically means "Cute sandbox". Even killing hung processes is a pain in the ass that requires 3rd party tools. Making windows "secure" is basically trying to parse the night sky into full white by firing leds into it with a blowpipe. And that is disregarding the amount that microsoft itself spies on you.

Last edited by Jaded; 31-07-2016 at 03:14 AM..

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Old 30-07-2016, 12:00 PM   #16
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blingley View Post
And that is disregarding the amount that microsoft itself spies on you.
Exactly right

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Old 30-07-2016, 02:00 PM   #17
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

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Exactly right
Spybot Anti-Beacon is your friend.

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Old 30-07-2016, 03:48 PM   #18
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stercogburn View Post
Spybot Anti-Beacon is your friend.
Hmmm... doesn't seem to be version for any of my OS's... Maybe I should upgrade to Windows

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Old 30-07-2016, 07:59 PM   #19
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

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Hmmm... doesn't seem to be version for any of my OS's... Maybe I should upgrade to Windows
You're such a Luddite. Do you even tech bro?

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Old 30-07-2016, 09:30 PM   #20
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Re: Please Understand the LETHAL Risks of Implementing the Internet of Things

I appreciate the good cheer and optimism, but why do I have the feeling that some people didn't read the articles or that the actual dangers are misunderstood?

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