Odd MIDI effects using Maschine
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Old 19-06-2016, 07:00 PM   #1
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Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

So, I am having a problem with what seems like ghost MIDI signals:

I am running Maschine 2.4.6 with Maschine Studio and and Kontrol S61 on MBP OS X 10.10.5 with MOTU 828x. MIDI out is from Studio out #1 to an Analog Four with pass through to a DSI Tempest, both in slave mode and Maschine is the master clock. Everything seems to be running ok with everything but the S61 powered up. Once I power it up and start playing for a little bit I get some strange MIDI effect that changes the time signature in the Electron A4 to 50 bpm and Maschine itself only produces erratic sounds and is unable to control the attached hardware.

Without the S61 powered up (it is not connected via MIDI cable) it takes playing it for a minute or so for the above to happen. No power on the S61 or not playing it will not do a thing.

Is the S61 sending a MIDI signal that causes this? Will connecting it to the MIDI chain fix this?
The MOTU is running on an internal clock, too. It's not connected via MIDI cable.

Maybe someone has encountered a similar issue?

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Old 20-06-2016, 05:31 PM   #2
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

You only need one MIDI clock in your setup as far as I'm aware, so could be a conflict there.

Check your devices are running on different MIDI channels from one another as another way to eliminate issues.

The sentence about the S61 not being connected via MIDI is confusing me.
I'll assume you mean it is connected, except via usb instead of MIDI?
That shouldn't cause any issue as far as I know.

Also, just having a quick look at the [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
, it may depend which mode you're running it in.

Quote:
2.3 Stand-Alone and Plug-in Mode
You can run the KOMPLETE KONTROL software as a stand-alone application or integrate it into
your favorite Digital Audio Workstation (or DAW, in short) by loading it as a plug-in. The
KOMPLETE KONTROL software is available in the VST, Audio Unit, and AAX plug-in formats.
For further information on plug-in compatibility and for a detailed description of how to use
plug-ins in your host, please refer to the documentation included with your host software. If
you did not install the plug-ins when installing the KOMPLETE KONTROL software, please refer
to the Setup Guide available from the documentation folder in the KOMPLETE KONTROL
software installation folder.

You cannot record MIDI in stand-alone mode. For information on audio and MIDI routing,
see section ↑2.6, Audio and MIDI Settings.

2.3.1 Differences between Stand-Alone and Plug-in Mode
Transport Functions and Navigate Controls
When KOMPLETE KONTROL is used as a plug-in within a host sequencer software (e.g., Cubase
or Pro Tools), the transport functions and the navigate controls on the KOMPLETE KONTROL
S-SERIES keyboard can be used to control your host application. For example, you can
switch tracks in your DAW, record arm them, and play back your recordings, all from your keyboard.
For more information, see section ↑7.3, Host Control and the Transport Section.
When using KOMPLETE KONTROL S-SERIES in MIDI mode, you can do this even when no
instance of KOMPLETE KONTROL is running.
When KOMPLETE KONTROL is used as a plug-in within a host sequencer software (e.g., Cubase
or Logic), KOMPLETE KONTROL receives its MIDI clock exclusively from the host application:
you cannot modify the tempo of your host project within the KOMPLETE KONTROL
plug-in itself—it is synchronized to your host’s transport functions and tempo settings. As a direct
consequence, when KOMPLETE KONTROL is used as a plug-in the tempo field is grayed
out and inactive in the KOMPLETE KONTROL header.
Audio and MIDI Handling
When KOMPLETE KONTROL is used in stand-alone mode, it directly communicates with your
audio and MIDI interface. You can select which physical audio/MIDI ports have to be used on
your interface, and configure crucial audio settings like the sample rate. All this is done via the
Audio and MIDI Settings panel (for more information on this, please refer to ↑2.6, Audio and
MIDI Settings).
▪ On the contrary, when KOMPLETE KONTROL is used as a plug-in within a host application,
the communication with your audio and MIDI interfaces is managed by the host—
the KOMPLETE KONTROL plug-in only communicates with the host.
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Old 20-06-2016, 05:42 PM   #3
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

So, what I mean by not connected is that there is no separate MIDI cable running. I think that it plugs into Maschine, which it controls just fine, and within Maschine I've set up the MIDI setting to be the Master and all external gear is set up as slave. I have also turned off the MIDI out from the S61, as well as the virtual out, basically leaving open the only hard wired MIDI cable connection from Maschine Studio to the A4 as a MIDI path. The A4 is also connected via USB, but the MIDI is set to... well, I better check, it may actually be set to USB, in which case, perhaps I need to disconnect the A4.

I guess redundant connectivity via USB and five pole MIDI isn't necessarily a good thing, is it?

Do you guys have any advice around USB vs 5 pole MIDI connectivity?

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Old 20-06-2016, 05:51 PM   #4
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

That's sort of what I'd like to do, albeit I consider Maschine the main DAW. I typically run Maschine as a plugin in Logic later, at which point Logic will take over.

The MOTU manual was a tad confusing to me as it didn't have a simple slave setting. So I left that piece as a to-do item.

So, what I'll go and aim for is to have all hardware use USB only MIDI and set to slave mode relative to Maschine/Logic

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Old 20-06-2016, 05:55 PM   #5
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

What are you trying to accomplish with this setup?

You want Maschine to be the master clock.
A4 and Tempest receive tempo from Maschine.
S61 is just a controller keyboard for Maschine, A4 and Tempest?

It seems the S61 is clearly the issue so I would at the settings there first. I'm pretty sure I've had my A4 connected via overbridge/USB and use it as a thru with no issues. Is there any kind of software associated with the S61? I'd check settings there. I'm actually pretty sure I've also had Maschine hooked up with USB and still used the MIDI out.

If everything is centered around the the condition/use of the S61 more than likely the problem resides within its settings.

Also from what you've said it doesn't seem like the MOTU is going to really be involved. The only thing I can think of is checking if Maschine is using the MOTU for both audio and MIDI. If Maschine isn't finding the MOTU that *might* *maybe* *probably isn't* causing an issue.

In this setup Maschine/MOTU should be the same MIDI clock.

Last edited by relic; 20-06-2016 at 06:17 PM..

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Old 20-06-2016, 05:59 PM   #6
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

Quote:
Note Mac OS X Users: MOTU's Universal Audio Driver allows your USB or FireWire device to resolve directly to another CoreAudio driver. Considering this, you will find "Built-In Input" (for resolving your hardware to your computer's Built-In Input), and any other connected MOTU or third-party interface listed. Selecting one of these options insures your unit will not drift apart from other audio streams during playback or recording.


Knowing your hardware's clock source setting is imperative. An incorrect clock setting may result in digital artifacts distorting your recordings. More detailed information can be found in the "Making Sync Connections", "MOTU Audio Setup/Console", and "MOTU SMPTE Setup/Console" sections of your product's manual.
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:01 PM   #7
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

Well, that's the odd part. The S61 is merely one of two control interfaces for the Maschine host, which is set to be the master. So, what you do on the Maschine Studio is reflected on the keyboard and both merely control the host application, which is the master MIDI clock.

But, yes, I want to use the S61 and Studio to control the Maschine host app, which is containing the A4 via Overbridge and the Tempest would also be run in slave mode.

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Old 20-06-2016, 06:05 PM   #8
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

What are SMPTE and word clock settings?

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Old 20-06-2016, 06:07 PM   #9
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

Dude...you have this device, I don't.
I've used my general MIDI knowledge to help you as much as I can, now you need to put some effort in.

RTFM, LMGTFY etc.
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:17 PM   #10
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by lolirl View Post
Dude...you have this device, I don't.
I've used my general MIDI knowledge to help you as much as I can, now you need to put some effort in.

RTFM, LMGTFY etc.
Had that coming, didn't I. Thanks for the pointers.

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Old 20-06-2016, 06:22 PM   #11
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

It's in the Audio setup (strangely)
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:24 PM   #12
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by liquid_air View Post
But, yes, I want to use the S61 and Studio to control the Maschine host app, which is containing the A4 via Overbridge and the Tempest would also be run in slave mode.
That is a three ring shit show of USB, MIDI and a bunch of proprietary software all trying to work together. One thing I would say is that if you have the A4 connected via overbridge don't connect it via MIDI also. You shouldn't need to. Connect the Tempest directly to MStudio.

Even though it seems the S61 should be the issue, I would still just subtract one machine from the equation at a time until I found the culprit. I made some edits to my last post, but the gist is, double check that Maschine is finding the MOTU OK for both audio and MIDI. I'm really not a MIDI expert. I usually just bang my head against the desk and change MIDI settings until I find something that works in a new setup : )

Honestly if you plan on adding more pieces you might start looking into MIDI patchbays.

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Old 20-06-2016, 06:27 PM   #13
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

MIDI patchbays are for crazy big studio setups from the 90's with racks and racks of synths and effects.
The only place I've ever seen anyone using one irl is at my college in about '98.
Once he get's this bit sorted, adding the odd extra synth here or there shouldn't be a big deal at all.
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:31 PM   #14
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by lolirl View Post
MIDI patchbays are for crazy big studio setups from the 90's with racks and racks of synths and effects.
The only place I've ever seen anyone using one irl is at my college in about '98.
Once he get's this bit sorted, adding the odd extra synth here or there shouldn't be a big deal at all.
Maybe patchbay is the wrong word. Something like a MOTU MIDI Express XT. But one or two more synths probably dont make that a necessity either way. Maybe just a MIDI Thru box.

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Old 20-06-2016, 08:27 PM   #15
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by liquid_air View Post
What are SMPTE and word clock settings?
The motu clock settings are for digital audio in and out. For digital audio to work properly all players need to be synced for the 1s and 0s to do 1 and 0 together, or some kind of voodoo!
All kidding aside that is what the motu clock stuff is for, if you ever get extra AD converters connected via the optical connections. I also seem to remember there might be some kind of sync protocol for video so maybe that's what one of those is for.

So back to your original issue only connect your hardware via one midi connector, be that USB or 5 pin, and check your midi routing in your software.

I have had a somewhat similar issue when I still had an electribe where the midi routing in live was set to all inputs and my soft synths would play the notes from the electribe sequencer IIRC. So yeah midi routing in maschine software.
And if that still isn't helping try using the midi out from the motu for your hardware!

Last edited by jbvdb493; 20-06-2016 at 08:34 PM..

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Old 20-06-2016, 09:38 PM   #16
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

I'll try to get that sorted by switching to USB only as my MIDI connection. I'll need that for Overbridge functionality. I think everything is class compliant. What I hear is that I need to figure out how to sync the MOTU (via USB) and then connect any additional units via the MOTU.

I will add two more class compliant synths and one more that I think will only have 5-pole.

I had the issue you described, jv, but it was easily resolved by deactivating MIDI input on the affected channels. Maschine is a bit quirky in that the default is not for MIDI in to be off.

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Old 20-06-2016, 09:53 PM   #17
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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So, when I spoke of confusing it was exactly this section and the one on page 32 it refers to that I was speaking of. I know that I have no video or DAT system attached, so SMTPE or S/PDIF really doesn't look like it would apply. I'm guessing core audio is the master, but it's far from clear to me based on how this is written.

I do read these manuals.

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Old 20-06-2016, 10:08 PM   #18
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by liquid_air View Post
I'll try to get that sorted by switching to USB only as my MIDI connection. I'll need that for Overbridge functionality. I think everything is class compliant. What I hear is that I need to figure out how to sync the MOTU (via USB) and then connect any additional units via the MOTU.

I will add two more class compliant synths and one more that I think will only have 5-pole.

I had the issue you described, jv, but it was easily resolved by deactivating MIDI input on the affected channels. Maschine is a bit quirky in that the default is not for MIDI in to be off.
I'm not getting on your case specifically, but I've heard "class compliant" thrown around a lot recently on the forums in regards to USB and synths/drum machines. All class compliant means is that your device will run on drivers written by Windows or OSX and don't need additional 3rd party drivers. In other words, it is plug and play.

And I honestly think that has nothing to do with with your situation. Technically speaking Maschine, the S61 and the A4 aren't class compliant because they all require software written by the manufacturer.

What do you need to sync the MOTU to? What are you connecting to it with USB? I really don't think that is the issue--again, not a MIDI expert by any means--however all the MIDI issues I've ever had that involved Maschine or my DAW it was never ever my MOTU 828. Whether I was using a piece of hardware as the master clock or using Maschine/DAW as master clock.

I believe you are correct that you could use either the MIDI out on Maschine or the MOTU to send clock/transport. However, my advice would be to not "daisy chain" a bunch of MIDI devices.

The problem with a daisy chained setup is that you may have to fiddle with the settings/filters on each synth/drum machine/sampler the MIDI signal is going through. It can build up MIDI "jitter" as mentioned already (timing issues). Trust me, I've had to track down weird MIDI issues in a large daisy chain setup (like seven devices all connected to each other). Too many times I've spent literally hours adjusting the MIDI filters on several devices trying to stop seemingly random MIDI events from happening (or trying to get events I programed to happen as they should).

I recommend investing in a MIDISolutions MIDI Thru box. Or Kenton. Basically it is a splitter box. Look one up. It should make sense how it works just by looking at it. It is kind of like a computer network router in a very simple sense.

I hope I haven't come off as a jerk here at any point. I just know how much of a bummer it is to waste the better part of an afternoon off tracking down some shitty issue instead of making music.

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Old 20-06-2016, 11:03 PM   #19
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

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Originally Posted by relic View Post
I'm not getting on your case specifically, but I've heard "class compliant" thrown around a lot recently on the forums in regards to USB and synths/drum machines. All class compliant means is that your device will run on drivers written by Windows or OSX and don't need additional 3rd party drivers. In other words, it is plug and play.

And I honestly think that has nothing to do with with your situation. Technically speaking Maschine, the S61 and the A4 aren't class compliant because they all require software written by the manufacturer.

What do you need to sync the MOTU to? What are you connecting to it with USB? I really don't think that is the issue--again, not a MIDI expert by any means--however all the MIDI issues I've ever had that involved Maschine or my DAW it was never ever my MOTU 828. Whether I was using a piece of hardware as the master clock or using Maschine/DAW as master clock.

I believe you are correct that you could use either the MIDI out on Maschine or the MOTU to send clock/transport. However, my advice would be to not "daisy chain" a bunch of MIDI devices.

The problem with a daisy chained setup is that you may have to fiddle with the settings/filters on each synth/drum machine/sampler the MIDI signal is going through. It can build up MIDI "jitter" as mentioned already (timing issues). Trust me, I've had to track down weird MIDI issues in a large daisy chain setup (like seven devices all connected to each other). Too many times I've spent literally hours adjusting the MIDI filters on several devices trying to stop seemingly random MIDI events from happening (or trying to get events I programed to happen as they should).

I recommend investing in a MIDISolutions MIDI Thru box. Or Kenton. Basically it is a splitter box. Look one up. It should make sense how it works just by looking at it. It is kind of like a computer network router in a very simple sense.

I hope I haven't come off as a jerk here at any point. I just know how much of a bummer it is to waste the better part of an afternoon off tracking down some shitty issue instead of making music.
Not at all. After all, I wouldn't ask if I had the answers and you or others have more experience. Should I go that way as you suggest, how does that not re-introduce the dual USB/MIDI 5-pole issue I was led to believe may cause the issue?

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Old 20-06-2016, 11:10 PM   #20
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Re: Odd MIDI effects using Maschine

MBP > thunderbolt > 828x (no sync required)
MBP > USB 1 > Maschine
MBP > USB 2 > A4
828x > Midi 5 pin > tempest midi in (for sync)
Keyboard midi out > Maschine midi in
Should keep everything separate, see if that works

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