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Music Theory & Composition Questions & comments about composition, arrangement, and music theory. Music rules and how to follow or break them.

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Old 18-09-2014, 02:45 PM   #21
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Re: Templates

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I think it comes down to the fact that if you are building templates with presets and routing out of your own experience it only makes sense as a time saver, but using training wheels built by someone else that you don't understand isn't going to do you any good.

A lot of things you have said, Duchamp, seem to come down to: "I want my tracks to sound good, but I want a shortcut I can load into my DAW to achieve this."

Maybe it isn't what you want, but it is the way I'm reading a lot of what you have said. If you really can't be bothered to learn about mixing, I suggest finding someone to mix your tracks. Presets and templates will never a replacement for experience.

IMHO you are dead wrong about what templates such as these are going to give. Really?! ---> "...I think a shortcut would...give me that CLA grip over producing." If it is possible for you to not take offense to this, please don't, but I think he would laugh his ass off at that statement.

I wish you luck man and hope you can figure out how to get your tunes where you want them!
Yeah I would have to templates aren't going to help much... it may get u started with an idea or direction to go in but every templates I've seen isn't right for me.... I could create my own template but I'm also not at the point where I've made so many tracks that I know how I usually start them... TBH I may start a track with a vocal, a sample that I like or perhaps just a drum or synth idea of my own.... because of these reason I don't use a template but if you know u use 3 or 4 vsts everytime or sampler then just make your own so you don't have to open them up everything.

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Old 18-09-2014, 06:45 PM   #22
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Re: Templates

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Originally Posted by relic View Post
I think it comes down to the fact that if you are building templates with presets and routing out of your own experience it only makes sense as a time saver, but using training wheels built by someone else that you don't understand isn't going to do you any good.
There's a lot of assumptions in here relic. Your comments, as well as some of the other comments, seem to be just picking an easy argument where everybody is on one side, as opposed to answering the questions that I asked - which in case you've missed it were:-

Q. Has anybody used these templates that you can buy at sites such as [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
(free download in case you want to join the topic of the conversation instead of reinventing the question)?
Q. Did you get any success with them?
Q. How the hell did you do it

and the answers that I've generally got are...

A. If you are poor you shouldn't make music
A. If you can't engineer then you shouldn't be a musician

None of these answer the questions that I was asking and most of the answers aren't really relevant to what I was asking anyway - I've ended up arguing all kinds of hypotheses with nobody claiming to have ever used/bought these templates and everybody knowing in advance that it isn't possible. The only answer anywhere in the ball park was from Lolirl saying "no" I don't use them.

You've assumed that I don't know what is going on, relic. I have spent maybe 25-30 years learning a lot about music in various areas.

Another comment that jumped out at me is that I can't be bothered learning. I am mentally retarded if that helps you to understand my situation better, not that being bothered is a relevant answer to the questions I asked. I have dyslexia, dyspraxia, mild autism, OSD, ADD, either manic depression or depression and schitzophrenia and anxiety disorder that I'm aware of. So as for being bothered, the fact that I've built my own studios with no help for 25+ years with all of my mental deficiencies shows that yes I can be bothered. I'm probably just incapable or something, but the assumption is totally wrong - I can be bothered but probably aren't capable, so if you want to laugh at that instead then feel free, now that you have the facts. And the fact that I haven't given up despite repeatedly failing has to count for something as well, surely?

And we all learn differently.

Having a few finished tracks would give me something to build on and I see something in the concept of templates that suits me. Instead I have literally hundreds of unfinished tracks - possibly a thousand that I've started - and that's just ridiculous. So personally I'd like to finish a track or two and if "cheating" my way there would help then great - but I've put more than my fair share of time in so ethics are irrelevant.

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IMHO you are dead wrong about what templates such as these are going to give
This is total nonsense. Templates certainly do have SOME kind of potential, and having looked at them I can tell you what you aren't capable of knowing, until you have a look and have something to actually base your reasoning on. I am not "dead wrong". Firstly they are already arranged, with automation in place. They use industry standards arrangements, which puts you part of the way there, which I am also good at screwing up. Its also much the same as using a ghost track, which many people do. Instantly you have an arrangement that works in the clubs that most other people use. So yes, its not going to be original as far as arrangement goes but its going to sound like a professional arrangement, instead of the crap that I come up with. There is something to learn right there, although I already know this and for some reason I have a magical inability to do something so straight forward. So right there is a guiderail for someone like me. I don't have to even use it in the end, but having it there to give me that little boost of confidence in myself is a big thing. Its like having someone in the room to tell me that I'm losing it a bit if you like. But again, without looking at these templates you can't make this assumption.

Then there's the actual settings that people are using to get "that sound". How do they get their sounds so fat? Unless you've learned this from somewhere its going to be a mystical art. So seeing these templates is again something to learn from, for many people I guess. I was expecting them to be different, as I've said. I thought they would use sends, but they've used inserts instead, but there's a lot to learn from how they've ended up with that sound and how it fits into the overall soundscape. What happens when I take it away? What happens when I change the dynamics? This is a way of learning that might well suit many people.

And the CLA remark was general. I am saying that where he has an understanding of where to go with it, which dials need turning etc, I feel that seeing a track in action, fully finished, and being able to play with those dials and understand what has happened to make it work that way would benefit me - so that CLA grip if you like. What I got was a bunch of inserts on each channel, instead of sends, which I'm not really feeling. I think you are probably right the CLA would probably laugh at that comment, but then that's probably an ego thing. Just because he laughs doesn't mean that its not possible to learn that way - they usually call it "reverse engineering" in other industries. Apparently in music engineering its called laughable. I'm not normal and I have no desire to be an engineer of that caliber, in case you missed the point of this topic. The point of the CLA grip was the ability to grab the right dial because I do know what the dials do already. A starting point would get me there a lot quicker. And I'm certain I'm not the only person who would learn this way. They reckon a large percentage of creative people have dyslexia for a start, so they are gonna struggle in the classroom or reading books etc, just like I do - so twiddling dials is a good way of learning.

But again, this is making it personal to me and a topic that has ended up being about me putting myself out there to have stones thrown at me, which wasn't really the reason I posted. I bow to everybody's engineering supremacy and admit that I'm incapable of engineering in practice etc, but back to the actual question - has anybody actually used these templates so that they are capable of actually answering the questions - rather than hypothesizing that planes can't fly because they defy gravity?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
in case you want to try for free. There are better sounding ones out there from the demo's I've heard, but they aren't free to try. I was considering buying one of those, but having seen these I'm dubious.

And on the hypothesizing, can anybody explain why a preset reverb with a compressor after it set to that reverb's attributes, sat on an fx bus and taking in several sounds with different attributes is not able to be set in advance? If it sounds good on one Trance track for example then why won't it sound good on another Trance track? One thing I've seen is that people use certain ratios something like 53% on delays at a certain tempo (128 or something) because of the feedback (there's a maths involved in why it reflects so well - it starts feeding back on itself at a perfect point or something), so again this is something that CAN be setup in advance and people swear by it. The arguments here suggest that isn't possible. And again, even adding eq onto that bus in advance to maybe boost the top end and cut the lows, might be different on different tracks, but that's not to say that it won't still sound good every time if its a high quality.
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Old 18-09-2014, 07:02 PM   #23
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Re: Templates

You are absolutely right about everything you stated about the usefulness of my posts in this thread, Duchamp. I apologize for my useless comments. I really didn't mean to insult you in anyway and I got carried away with an irrelevant conversation that doesn't answer you questions. I have a problem with that when I'm bored.

I have not used them so I have no place to speak here as you point out. I can't at the moment read your lengthy post, but I will, as clearly I can learn something.
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Old 19-09-2014, 03:07 AM   #24
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Re: Templates

Quote:
There's a lot of assumptions in here relic. Your comments, as well as some of the other comments, seem to be just picking an easy argument where everybody is on one side, as opposed to answering the questions that I asked - which in case you've missed it were:-

Q. Has anybody used these templates that you can buy at sites such as [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
(free download in case you want to join the topic of the conversation instead of reinventing the question)?
Q. Did you get any success with them?
Q. How the hell did you do it

and the answers that I've generally got are...

A. If you are poor you shouldn't make music
A. If you can't engineer then you shouldn't be a musician
Fair play. I personally didn't answer your original question. I'm not going to go back and try to defend anything I said specifically, but I don't believe either of your "answers". When I suggest finding someone to mix your tracks, I didn't mean you had to pay for it. But I can see how anyone might take it that way.

Quote:
None of these answer the questions that I was asking and most of the answers aren't really relevant to what I was asking anyway - I've ended up arguing all kinds of hypotheses with nobody claiming to have ever used/bought these templates and everybody knowing in advance that it isn't possible. The only answer anywhere in the ball park was from Lolirl saying "no" I don't use them.
Again. Fair play.

You've assumed that I don't know what is going on, relic. I have spent maybe 25-30 years learning a lot about music in various areas.
Quote:
Another comment that jumped out at me is that I can't be bothered learning. I am mentally retarded if that helps you to understand my situation better, not that being bothered is a relevant answer to the questions I asked. I have dyslexia, dyspraxia, mild autism, OSD, ADD, either manic depression or depression and schitzophrenia and anxiety disorder that I'm aware of. So as for being bothered, the fact that I've built my own studios with no help for 25+ years with all of my mental deficiencies shows that yes I can be bothered. I'm probably just incapable or something, but the assumption is totally wrong - I can be bothered but probably aren't capable, so if you want to laugh at that instead then feel free, now that you have the facts. And the fact that I haven't given up despite repeatedly failing has to count for something as well, surely?

And we all learn differently.
Again. I won't go back and defend anything I said. Whenever I see anything about templates, presets or shortcuts I assume its some "cashing in on the bandwagon" type who can't be bothered to learn. That assumption bit me in the ass this time. And I apologize for assuming that.

The fact you haven't given up, clearly, counts for a lot. Admittedly, I've probably done less with music than you have and without your difficulties. I feel like a shithead.

Quote:
Having a few finished tracks would give me something to build on and I see something in the concept of templates that suits me. Instead I have literally hundreds of unfinished tracks - possibly a thousand that I've started - and that's just ridiculous. So personally I'd like to finish a track or two and if "cheating" my way there would help then great - but I've put more than my fair share of time in so ethics are irrelevant.
It really wasn't so much about ethics or "cheating" for me, but I was assuming I was talking to someone with a different mind set, someone unwilling to learn and was trying to argue for learning. Again, that is my fault and stupidity. Clearly, I didn't need to do that.

I can see how templates might help you out.



Quote:
This is total nonsense. Templates certainly do have SOME kind of potential, and having looked at them I can tell you what you aren't capable of knowing, until you have a look and have something to actually base your reasoning on. I am not "dead wrong". Firstly they are already arranged, with automation in place. They use industry standards arrangements, which puts you part of the way there, which I am also good at screwing up. Its also much the same as using a ghost track, which many people do. Instantly you have an arrangement that works in the clubs that most other people use. So yes, its not going to be original as far as arrangement goes but its going to sound like a professional arrangement, instead of the crap that I come up with. There is something to learn right there, although I already know this and for some reason I have a magical inability to do something so straight forward. So right there is a guiderail for someone like me. I don't have to even use it in the end, but having it there to give me that little boost of confidence in myself is a big thing. Its like having someone in the room to tell me that I'm losing it a bit if you like. But again, without looking at these templates you can't make this assumption.
Yep. I'm wrong here again.

Quote:
Then there's the actual settings that people are using to get "that sound". How do they get their sounds so fat? Unless you've learned this from somewhere its going to be a mystical art. So seeing these templates is again something to learn from, for many people I guess. I was expecting them to be different, as I've said. I thought they would use sends, but they've used inserts instead, but there's a lot to learn from how they've ended up with that sound and how it fits into the overall soundscape. What happens when I take it away? What happens when I change the dynamics? This is a way of learning that might well suit many people.
Sure. Like any preset. I can agree with this.
Quote:
And the CLA remark was general. I am saying that where he has an understanding of where to go with it, which dials need turning etc, I feel that seeing a track in action, fully finished, and being able to play with those dials and understand what has happened to make it work that way would benefit me - so that CLA grip if you like. What I got was a bunch of inserts on each channel, instead of sends, which I'm not really feeling. I think you are probably right the CLA would probably laugh at that comment, but then that's probably an ego thing. Just because he laughs doesn't mean that its not possible to learn that way - they usually call it "reverse engineering" in other industries. Apparently in music engineering its called laughable. I'm not normal and I have no desire to be an engineer of that caliber, in case you missed the point of this topic. The point of the CLA grip was the ability to grab the right dial because I do know what the dials do already. A starting point would get me there a lot quicker. And I'm certain I'm not the only person who would learn this way. They reckon a large percentage of creative people have dyslexia for a start, so they are gonna struggle in the classroom or reading books etc, just like I do - so twiddling dials is a good way of learning.
I can see the wisdom there.

Bottom line is I got on a tirade for...whatever lacking quality in my character. It was shitty of me. I can't try out logic templates to let you know. I apologize for wasting your time.

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Old 19-09-2014, 08:48 PM   #25
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Re: Templates

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Fair play. I personally didn't answer your original question. I'm not going to go back and try to defend anything I said specifically, but I don't believe either of your "answers". When I suggest finding someone to mix your tracks, I didn't mean you had to pay for it. But I can see how anyone might take it that way.
Yeah that's all good.
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Old 19-09-2014, 10:27 PM   #26
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Re: Templates

I guess it's in poor taste to have an opposing opinion sometimes.
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Old 19-09-2014, 11:27 PM   #27
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Re: Templates

Hi Duchamp.
I've never downloaded or used anybodies arrangement templates, but i have tried to draw my own out on paper.
I say tried because i quickly realized that the arrangement is very much a creative process, like melody and sound design.. your sounds mostly need be woven into the arrangement.. sometimes it doesn't work to say, intro for 16br, kick for 8br, breakdown at 32.. etc
Just say you did download some crazy dub hop glitch banger.. all you've gotta do is assign some sounds and it sounds like nothing you'd have ever made before, would it feel like cheating.?

Edit- just looked at the website and man templates for everything.. Almost like having a downloadable ghost engineer.

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Old 20-09-2014, 12:30 AM   #28
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Re: Templates

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Edit- just looked at the website and man templates for everything.. Almost like having a downloadable ghost engineer.
Indeed.

Hi RUncELL and thanks for making the effort and actually looking at them. I totally understand why everybody is arguing that the theory of this won't work, but these sites reckon that its possible - hence the reason I brought the subject up to see if anyone had any success. Some people will have already used these - whether they got anything out of them or not and I reckon we've probably heard some of them in the listening booth. Nobody is going to admit to that, especially now after the comments against using them. But like you've seen, the automation is already in place, the arrangement is structured. Everything is already set 90%, so they're largely there already.

I think people have to face the possibility that this is the future of music. Tracks will one day be made this way - there will be software that automates a lot of the engineering - it already happens with auto gains for example. I can remember everybody laughing at the idea of hardware dying out because of the quality of vsts. Same with records and cds.

The next step, if there's any programmers reading this, is to program an algorithm to adapt from the shape of the original drums, for example, so that it can anticipate from the transients of the new drum that you put in place, how to get the same kind of emphasis and dynamics and slot the new drum into the track perfectly based on its room settings, eq, compressor, fx etc. The algorithm would calculate the difference between the shapes and set the eq to remove similar unwanted artifacts - which at first would be guesswork and you might need to interact with it to tell it which bits you want removing. Something similar happens in one of Izotope's plugins, that can remove certain sounds etc, so they're already working in these kind of areas.

From there you need calculations that will convert for example a kick in C2 (65.406hz) into F# (92.499hz), calculate in the transients and artifacts and presto - you've got your hit making warez.

For somebody code-minded, this could be pretty basic shit actually. Its all mathematical anyway.

So if we go that route, what will set people apart from each other? Where will the genius come into making music? I think that within probably a decade this will become a reality and this is how people will be making music. Look at how far software has come in about a decade.
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Old 20-09-2014, 05:07 AM   #29
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Re: Templates

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I fully understand but I think there can be a general setup that I will use 90% of and tweak just a little bit and it should be close enough. I'm not much of an engineer and I hate that side, so I'd take any shortcuts that I can get.
There is a template that will do 90% of the general tasks which you usually undertake in your projects. You're the only person who can make it. Unless you know somebody like me who can come and sit with you in your studio and learn about your workflow and build it for you.

The thing about these templates is that they are not tailored to your workflow. At best, they are a generalised and restrictive package to suit the content. I don't see how they could be useful for working with content from outside the template, unless the imported audio is very similar to the template content.

You're not going to get any level of customisation in a commercial template. Period. You've already found this to be true. They do stuff, but they don't do stuff they way you want. At best, you can look at how they do things and incorporate their techniques into your workflow. So they could be a good educational tool. But I doubt it. I think these templates are just the next iteration of the sample/remix pack. It's another way of packaging individual tracks. Not creating new ones.
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Old 20-09-2014, 09:00 AM   #30
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Re: Templates

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Unless you know somebody like me who can come and sit with you in your studio and learn about your workflow and build it for you.
If that's a free offer then I'll take it!

The first thing that jumps out at me there is that by you sitting with me and seeing my workflow and building me a template, it would be pretty much your template with what I need you to set up - reverbs, eq and arrangement, and possibly compressors. So what's the difference between that and taking sections from other people's templates - which I'm kind of in the process of doing as I go along?

Again, the subject has come back to being about me, instead of feedback on having actually used the templates and then saying, it doesn't work for me/won't work for you because... which is where I started the topic by saying that I also cannot see how its possible because...

This is a problem for me Jaded - workflow. I have attention deficit. I can't concentrate on one thing and I keep getting distracted - just like writing this answer, which is partly written below and I'm now adding to, which is how my mental mind works. I keep trying to perfect things that probably don't need perfecting and were probably most of the way there. I could probably work better by leaving things as they are, finishing my arrangement and then just tinkering with levels afterwards, but I keep hearing something wrong and try to fix it as I go along, lose my flow and generally cock up the overall sound - I can't help this either because I am OCD as well and I have a habit of destroying things by trying too hard.

Lets hypothesize you take a template and you can work with these, because there's something about reverse engineering tracks that suits you more than what people accept as normal (because its clear here generalizing the responses that there is only a workflow for me and for everybody else their own). Your actual workflow would adapt to these templates. I know I've changed my own workflow over the years due to what I've seen from other people and I probably had it a lot less erratic in the past than it is now. Again, there is nothing to say that people can't adapt themselves into that way of working. For somebody starting out they might find these templates to be a godsend. After watching tutorials about how other people produce, there will be people who work strictly to the same procedure and who have either developed their own quirks out of that and developed their own unique styles, or else got exactly the same kind of productions and no uniqueness. My point here is that people work differently and just like the responses here are that it isn't possible, people take different things from different sources of inspiration.

Personally, as I've already stated, I could get a lot from following their arrangements if I was making the same style, because my arrangement would be a lot better that way. The last track I've been working on, my mate tells me that I should have stuck with my first arrange - which was simply a formulaic layout thrown together in 2 minutes as a demo of the loops - to see if it was worth working on. Since then I've managed to destroy the energy of the track's flow by working exactly how you are saying I should be working - as it goes along and feeling the track. So I would have been better off using a template arrangement.

So I'm somewhere on the fence as to what's possible and what's best for me.
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Old 20-09-2014, 09:19 AM   #31
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Re: Templates

This thread is nice, probably a bit too long now and not really going anywhere, but at least it's pleasant.
The first thing that jumps out at me is that you don't seem to be any further along with this simple question.
You've asked us and I think the general view here is no, we haven't tried them. But rather than ignore the thread and let it drop to the bottom of the board, some of the regulars have come in to give some subjective opinion.

So, bouncing it back to you Duchamp, have you bought and tried any of these out yet? You seem like the only person here that's interested tbh, so can you give us any feedback on these yet? Have they been any use to you? Would you recommend them to us?
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Old 20-09-2014, 03:37 PM   #32
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Re: Templates

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This thread is nice, probably a bit too long now and not really going anywhere, but at least it's pleasant.
The first thing that jumps out at me is that you don't seem to be any further along with this simple question.
You've asked us and I think the general view here is no, we haven't tried them. But rather than ignore the thread and let it drop to the bottom of the board, some of the regulars have come in to give some subjective opinion.

So, bouncing it back to you Duchamp, have you bought and tried any of these out yet? You seem like the only person here that's interested tbh, so can you give us any feedback on these yet? Have they been any use to you? Would you recommend them to us?
Yeah I apologise for ranting. I should have never learned to type.

I've downloaded free tracks but not bought any. I've had a listen to some pay tracks that I liked the sound of - I was listening to the verbs and compression and trying to imagine what tracks I've done that might sit in the style and feel of the track. If they had verbs set up as sends I could imagine them working, or being pretty close to what I'd need and making a few tweaks, but when I opened up the free ones they were pretty poor to be honest - so its not really a great gauge for how possible it is.

I've looked at these and at first glance they seem too difficult to use because they've bound the sounds in set verbs on each channel, so its too restrictive to use to any great effect in my opinion. But then other people seem to work this way so maybe it would suit some people. Depends on how you work I guess.

I'm going to make one of these tracks today and I'll pass it off in the Listening Booth as my own track. If you've read this thread please don't spoil the reaction and lets see what people think about the track and whether anybody picks up on it being a template and what they have to say about the production. I'll change a few things and you can tell me what isn't fitting - couple of hours work or so and see what we get...

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lolirl (20-09-2014)
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