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Old 17-01-2017, 10:38 PM   #41
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Originally Posted by GomesR View Post
Tbh I get depressed when I'm not working all day. It seems miserable until I have too much time on my hands. I think a common problem is, is everybody sees their job as, "for the man", and not enough people can or will give a shit about what they're doing. You get stuck in a rat race mentality, more money, look at them, greedy attitude. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of this BIEN thing, but I hardly find it to be the right answer. People need to change and stop blaming it on a leader. I think it will definitely make most people more lazy.

Make things happen because you want to, don't not do it because you think you're helping fat cats.
You're right..people do need to change..and any changes like this one won't happen or be accepted until such time that they do. We need to start thinking differently about how we spent our time and what actually defines us as individuals. This whole Universal Payment idea is NOT really about the money..it more to do with what your life would be like if you didn't have to worry about having to cover your basic living needs..how would that effect your life personally?

I like to think it would empower people to make their dreams come true..to actually get up off their arses and do those things in life they always wanted to do, but couldn't because they had to work in a "real job".

But, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

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Old 17-01-2017, 10:43 PM   #42
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

I'm with GomesR, I just graduated and I'm looking for work. I'm not losing my mind yet, but I find I'm generally more productive in my free time when I have other commitments that force me to make the most of my free time. When my last semester of school started, I went from having about 4-5 hours a day to make music to having 1-2, and I did more in the first week of that than in a month of having more time to work because every night I sat down with an action plan of what was going to get done. I put out three good songs last semester, which I think constitutes half of my releases for last year (over a 3 month span) in which I also had two major projects and had to learn how to use new software for one of them. Now that I have more free time, I'm trying very much to fill it with things to do besides music (I'm learning Pyhton as a first coding language and learning about network administration because, go figure, the first recruiter who got in touch with me wanted a guy with an accounting degree to work in IT). But I'm into computers and finance, so I'm looking very forward to finding a fulfilling job that helps me practice that stuff and get paid for it. Bonus if I can learn enough on the job to run my own company in due time, possibly making synths or vsts (if I get good at this programming thing and learn more about electronics, which is something I'm considering). So I see a job as an opportunity to better myself, not as a time-stealing, soul-sucking, futile endeavor (I do see the job-search as that though). I do see how you could feel that way in a customer service or retail position, but is there really no opportunity to learn a new skill from any co-worker or manager you come into contact with and use that skill to better your own life?
EDIT: when I started typing this, only GomesR's first post was here, so this doesn't make as much sense now. Things went in a bit of a different direction than I expected. Oh well, I hope there's some wisdom hidden in here, though I think it does get away from the spirit of the original question at hand.

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Also, check this out. Updated 10-27-17.

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Old 17-01-2017, 10:45 PM   #43
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Oh and I should say, I grew up very poor. I've hated jobs. I've had more clandestine jobs and made a lot of money and I can tell you, it's not where it's at. Money is garbage. If I can eat and stay busy while doing something that I can take some pride in, I'm happy. It's taken me awhile to figure this out, and who knows, maybe I'll change my mind again, as I do often.
Again, you're right. What you're saying about how you live your life is exactly what this is all about..helping everyone else out there to see it's their RIGHT in life to live their life how THEY want..and you enable this by making sure they have enough to cover their basic living costs..everyone is given the same and are then free to go live their lives as they see fit..be that working the same amount of hours in the same job..or starting an entirely new job, one they weren't able to do before, due to having to hold down a job they hated, just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.

Like I said, it's really about changing the way everyone views their lives and helping them understand they can do whatever they want to do with their lives..and helping to give them the power to do just that.

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Old 17-01-2017, 10:57 PM   #44
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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..but I find I'm generally more productive in my free time when I have other commitments that force me to make the most of my free time.
That's the problem right there..NOBODY should feel forced to do anything..it's THEIR time in the first place. So, if you.re currently doing something you love and find fulfilling, then that's just great..but many others out there aren't and don't share your good fortune..and they deserve the right to do what they want with their time the same as you do.

It's not about the money..it's about the freedom that a basic income gives to each and everyone of us.

It's about empowering everyone to able to stand eye-to-eye with everyone else and have the RIGHT to be treated as an equal individual.

..and the crazy thing is we aren't that far from making it all actually work..folks just need to take that step.

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Old 17-01-2017, 11:24 PM   #45
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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That's the problem right there..NOBODY should feel forced to do anything..it's THEIR time in the first place. So, if you.re currently doing something you love and find fulfilling, then that's just great..but many others out there aren't and don't share your good fortune..and they deserve the right to do what they want with their time the same as you do.

It's not about the money..it's about the freedom that a basic income gives to each and everyone of us.

It's about empowering everyone to able to stand eye-to-eye with everyone else and have the RIGHT to be treated as an equal individual.

..and the crazy thing is we aren't that far from making it all actually work..folks just need to take that step.
It's not so much feeling forced, at least in my situation, it's systems. Routine. I need these things I guess. I'm more motivated to be creative in my off time that way.

I really hope it works out A.M., I don't want you to think I'm being a bubble buster over here

I really hope there would be a rush of incentive and drive in people who were given a kickstart.

But also, let's say everybody gets some financial assistance. Let's say the equivalent of ten dollars an hour, based on your exchange rate anywhere in the world. So now the baseline is ten an hour. Actually make up any amount. To me this just basically means, 0 an hour, as all things that cost money will rise around it to pay for it, thus, back at square one. Maybe the money in hand will be incentive enough for some, but for most I think it'll be squandered in the same way, high taxes, high rent, etc etc. Capitalism, you chop one head off and two grow back.

Unless, you took everything from people who have made more and spread it equally across the nations, which would cause most likely nuclear disaster. But yes, if something so radical happened and everybody got a restart, who knows what could happen?

I'm not an economic major and I could be (probably) wrong, just the way I see it. Maybe I'm even missing the point altogether, still

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Old 17-01-2017, 11:48 PM   #46
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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It's not so much feeling forced, at least in my situation, it's systems. Routine. I need these things I guess. I'm more motivated to be creative in my off time that way.

I really hope it works out A.M., I don't want you to think I'm being a bubble buster over here

I really hope there would be a rush of incentive and drive in people who were given a kickstart.

But also, let's say everybody gets some financial assistance. Let's say the equivalent of ten dollars an hour, based on your exchange rate anywhere in the world. So now the baseline is ten an hour. Actually make up any amount. To me this just basically means, 0 an hour, as all things that cost money will rise around it to pay for it, thus, back at square one. Maybe the money in hand will be incentive enough for some, but for most I think it'll be squandered in the same way, high taxes, high rent, etc etc. Capitalism, you chop one head off and two grow back.

Unless, you took everything from people who have made more and spread it equally across the nations, which would cause most likely nuclear disaster. But yes, if something so radical happened and everybody got a restart, who knows what could happen?

I'm not an economic major and I could be (probably) wrong, just the way I see it. Maybe I'm even missing the point altogether, still

No worries, G..no bubbles to bust here..we're all just sharing what we currently think about this topic..and those views could change with time.

I hear what you're saying, but my point is people keep focusing on the money side of it, when that's just a means to an end..albeit a big one..it's not really about the money. The various trials over the years and studies that have been done seem to indicate this is VERY do-able financially.

More to the point, you say YOU need systems and routine in your life in order to be motivated enough to be creative and I get that..but nothing I've said or touch on would change the way YOU currently do thing or live your life. The only difference is you would have MORE freedom when it comes to making choices about how you live your life and spend your time..as would everyone else.

But, in the some cases, people don't even have the free time you might currently enjoy..and it's also about giving them that right to the same quality of life as you, if they so choose. The choice about how we live our lives should be a basic human right..not a privilege you need to earn from another human, by working for them in order to get money to fund your life..that's just a glorified version of slavery.

Stepping back for a moment, I guess I need to apologizes if I'm coming across as trying to browbeat you or anyone else into accepting all of this..I'm not, trust me..it's just something I really do feel passionate about is all. Also please keep in mind I do understand your take on it, too.

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Old 17-01-2017, 11:50 PM   #47
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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..and that's exactly the point..to make such a difference in a person's life, that they actually understand in very real terms what it means to really live their lives..and not just go through life chasing an income in order to live; that there is more to our lives..more to us..than merely working to earn somebody else profit in return for the best part of our waking lives.

I guess it's a wake-up call of sorts..but one that can be misunderstood without the right education beforehand..and that, like I said before, is where the real challenge lies as I see it..getting the vast majority to understand this IS a good thing and not another handout to the poor in our world.

It has to happen one day..I really don't think they're going to have any other choice if they want to continue with "business as usual" and they already know this themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ
On the flip side, I'm sure I could make 500 quid a month doing handjobs if I just put a little more effort in.
Man, I should just try a bit harder.

Seriously, I'm very aware that nobody owes me a living.
Call that brainwashing or conditioning or whatever but yeah, why should anyone give me anything for nothing?
Which also begs the question, why not just cut the taxes for people earning under X amount per year (more than the 10k it's at now, perhaps it should be the average wage, I dunno) to nothing?
That way you're still encouraged to work but you take home 100% of the spoils of your effort until you reach a threshold at which you're capable of chipping in to the system.

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Old 17-01-2017, 11:52 PM   #48
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Money is garbage. If I can eat and stay busy while doing something that I can take some pride in, I'm happy.
That, that, that!

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Old 18-01-2017, 12:05 AM   #49
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Really?

Do you think it wouldn't be a good thing for everyone on here?

I don't know how many times I've read on here folks saying they would love to spend more time producing their art, but have to hold down jobs in order to put bread on the table.
Nah, that's like the worst argument for bringing this in that's out there.
Very selfish and childish view I think.

Don't get me wrong, it would be great to have enough time and money to swan about doing unimportant stuff just because the whim takes me but ffs, no, that's what the lottery is for.
At least until robots have shit locked down and power is free for everyone on the planet.
Then maybe we should look at this again, until that point I'm clocking in I'm afraid.



but on the other hand, I'm not a machine


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Old 18-01-2017, 12:25 AM   #50
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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On the flip side, I'm sure I could make 500 quid a month doing handjobs if I just put a little more effort in.
Man, I should just try a bit harder.

Seriously, I'm very aware that nobody owes me a living.
Call that brainwashing or conditioning or whatever but yeah, why should anyone give me anything for nothing?
Which also begs the question, why not just cut the taxes for people earning under X amount per year (more than the 10k it's at now, perhaps it should be the average wage, I dunno) to nothing?
That way you're still encouraged to work but you take home 100% of the spoils of your effort until you reach a threshold at which you're capable of chipping in to the system.
Handjobs aside..like I said, it's not really about the money, as many seem to think it is..we only keep focusing on the money side of things because that's how we currently attribute value to things in our society..but it's really about changing that perception in the first place.

It's about helping others to understand it's NOT a "handout" or "money for nothing"..it's giving everyone the same chance to be who they really are and want to be in their lives, by taking care of everyone's basic needs. With those needs catered for, people are then free to pursue their dreams, be that further study, advancing in their current job or finding a totally new one, if that's what they want to do.

It's about removing certain stresses from people's lives, that usually manifest when they have long-term financial worries. Decreasing these and other forms of stresses in society makes people more healthy and more productive in general..which lowers health service costs in the long term.

It's about making this world a more equitable place to live and empowering everyone so they can have the freedom to live as they really want to..and not as others think they should.

Basically, it's about changing the world we live in from the bottom up, in a very real way..adopting a new way of looking at both our own lives and the lives of others..and respecting what we find when we do.

Again, as I said to GomesR, I'm not trying to browbeat anyone here into subscribing to any of this..it's just something I really do think we need to do..or will do eventually. And if I'm right,m then it would be better for everyone if we did it sooner than later.

That said, I'm also this is IDMf and I seriously doubt any of the world's leaders are lurking in here, waiting for us to drop the odd nugget of insight, in order for them to make or institute their policies.

In short, what we're talking about could really change the world, but seriously..I don't think is will happen any time soon..I'd like it to, but change happens slowly. That said, I honestly do think it's something, as I said already, that is going to happen..like it or not.

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Old 18-01-2017, 12:41 AM   #51
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Nah, that's like the worst argument for bringing this in that's out there.
Very selfish and childish view I think.

Don't get me wrong, it would be great to have enough time and money to swan about doing unimportant stuff just because the whim takes me but ffs, no, that's what the lottery is for.
At least until robots have shit locked down and power is free for everyone on the planet.
Then maybe we should look at this again, until that point I'm clocking in I'm afraid.



but on the other hand, I'm not a machine

Of course it's a very selfish view..it's my own view..I want to spend all my time making music....hence the example I used about members on here, because I thought would be able to relate to that.

But yeah..and your right..we're not ready as we are now..in the society we are currently living..and nobody is saying this is something we should be doing right now. Some would like it, sure, but as I've been saying all the long..it's not about the money..it's about educating people now, so they understand the possible changes that will be coming down the line eventually.

It's about cultivating a society that accepts the rights of others to "swan about" doing what they want to do, even if we personally think those things are "unimportant stuff"..just like it would still be your right to choose NOT to swan around.

You're right when you say this isn't going to happen until robots have shit locked down..and those who are pushing this say the same thing..the only difference is they seem to think the timescale we're looking at puts this happening a lot sooner than people had first thought.

Sorry, I can't give you exact figures..you'll have to go searching online for those if you're interested..I'm not expert on this topic and I'm not trying to put myself across as one..I'm just sharing what I've read on it to date, as well as being open about being a supporter of this idea. People are free to agree or disagree with me..that's their right and I respect that.

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Old 18-01-2017, 06:14 AM   #52
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

I think this is an interesting idea and if it could work, maybe it would be a lot better for those who wish to pursue an artistic lifestyle or hobbyist lifestyle.

My two cents on it are that I definitely believe it would de-incentivize work and production, and the idea of working a difficult low-medium income job for any reason would become completely unjustified because living comfortably would be easier.

My question is this, where would the money come from? If the payment is granted federally, where does the government (or group of governments) get the money for it? Wouldn't they have to tax that same money source? There is no way that could come out even right?

and assuming everyone gets this payment, who's paying the farmers to keep growing food and the grocers to keep buying it, etc. etc. if you can live somewhat comfortably with a basic income?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any way for this to work. If anyone knows a system that could keep it working long term, I'd be happy to discuss it.
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Old 18-01-2017, 06:20 AM   #53
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Icon14 Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Really?

Do you think it wouldn't be a good thing for everyone on here?

I don't know how many times I've read on here folks saying they would love to spend more time producing their art, but have to hold down jobs in order to put bread on the table.
But to go so far as saying that working full time is akin to suicide is a pretty pathetic statement, again the majority of people do it and still manage a work life balance.
And I don't think it would be a good thing for everyone here, I wouldn't quit my job even if there was a guaranteed income, and I am sure others might agree with me. Part of it is having a job that doesn't suck too much. And part of it is that I can afford more working than I could with a minimum guaranteed income, I like how I live and the way I can raise my kids. We couldn't do it on welfare or whatever!

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Old 18-01-2017, 06:27 AM   #54
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Now don't get me wrong, I wish the single mom working full time at a McDonald's could make enough to live without worrying so much for her kids etc. But our society does value ones contribution to said society and that's why certain jobs deserve a higher wage than others! If the doctor I go see makes as much as a waitress somewhere what's the doctors incentive not to fuck up something?
It's not about attributing value solely on a financial basis, although I agree that it seems like that a lot, but more about how you can make your and your family's outlook better by doing something, ie work.

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Old 18-01-2017, 09:01 AM   #55
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Now don't get me wrong, I wish the single mom working full time at a McDonald's could make enough to live without worrying so much for her kids etc. But our society does value ones contribution to said society and that's why certain jobs deserve a higher wage than others! If the doctor I go see makes as much as a waitress somewhere what's the doctors incentive not to fuck up something?
It's not about attributing value solely on a financial basis, although I agree that it seems like that a lot, but more about how you can make your and your family's outlook better by doing something, ie work.
You make some interesting points.
That Mum at McDonalds...I think the point is that it would take some pressure off of people like that so that they don't struggle so much trying to juggle child care and generally trying to accommodate the kids, while she's also expected to be earning.
In the UK that Mum is already claiming her full social care allowance, it's just that from one month to the next, because of her "zero hours" contract at McDonald's, the amount she is entitled to changes because it's means tested on a month by month basis, causing her a lot of extra paperwork and the possibility of confusion in payment amounts, stopped payments and sanctions.
It's a terrible system.
This way she wouldn't have to claim for child benefits, she wouldn't have to effectively claim as unemployed some months because she didn't get any hours at the arches, she wouldn't have mess around with working tax credits etc, just one payment, done, the same every month and she's free to go and earn as much or as little as she likes on top of that without being penalised.
I think that's pretty valid tbh.

Nobody is saying do this without working.
And as you said yourself, you would be one of the people, (against what people automatically assume), who would continue to work regardless because you see the value in it, and presumably you're above the poverty line and enjoy your lifestyle like it is.
You have to admit it would be nice to have your whole fuel or food or whatever bill removed though, so that you could spend it on climbing trips or whatever, right?

The thing about what people deserve to earn goes out of the window when you can become a billionaire by selling social media and viral videos to people.
In that regard the system is broken already.
You're right, why should some dick with a camera drive a Ferrari and fly around the world while his dad performs life-saving operations for a fraction of his income?

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Old 18-01-2017, 10:23 AM   #56
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Full time s 40 hours, and don't sound so entitled! Ffs everyone I know does it and still has time to live their lives!
full time in France is 35hrs. anyway.
I suggested to a friend I have to come with me to an event she told me she was interested to go to and she said "oh, it's wednesday. wed is the only day I have in the week to spend some time with my boyfriend".
I am part of an amateur music ensemble, and a good portion of the people there, who paid for the workshop, miss half the rehearsals because they have last-minute job obligations. The rest of the people come at every rehearsal without having worked on their parts, because they had no time.
One of my guitar students has a full-time job and two kids. He only plays guitar once a week, and that's during our class.

Of course these are all examples of people who can't do their "hobbies", which I understand would mean very little in a lot of people's representation of a meaningful life. But I happen to be one of those stupid hippies who believe art and self-development are important.

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But to go so far as saying that working full time is akin to suicide is a pretty pathetic statement, again the majority of people do it and still manage a work life balance.
I know, of course. I was being over-dramatic. I'm a level-headed guy, generally. don't pay attention to my bursts of emotion.

Last edited by Lug; 18-01-2017 at 10:35 AM..

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Old 18-01-2017, 10:31 AM   #57
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Now don't get me wrong, I wish the single mom working full time at a McDonald's could make enough to live without worrying so much for her kids etc. But our society does value ones contribution to said society and that's why certain jobs deserve a higher wage than others! If the doctor I go see makes as much as a waitress somewhere what's the doctors incentive not to fuck up something?
I think the idea is precisely that the incentive could be something else than the money you make out of your activity. When I read about UBI, the articles often reffered to experiments in psychology that study the difference between extrinsic rewards (do this and you'll get that in return) vs instrinsic rewards (do this so you get better at it). This idea is pretty popular in education too, where some teachers want to experiment with something different than the threat of punishment to get students to work.

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Old 18-01-2017, 11:24 AM   #58
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Originally Posted by Lug View Post
full time in France is 35hrs. anyway.
I suggested to a friend I have to come with me to an event she told me she was interested to go to and she said "oh, it's wednesday. wed is the only day I have in the week to spend some time with my boyfriend".
I am part of an amateur music ensemble, and a good portion of the people there, who paid for the workshop, miss half the rehearsals because they have last-minute job obligations. The rest of the people come at every rehearsal without having worked on their parts, because they had no time.
One of my guitar students has a full-time job and two kids. He only plays guitar once a week, and that's during our class.

Of course these are all examples of people who can't do their "hobbies", which I understand would mean very little in a lot of people's representation of a meaningful life. But I happen to be one of those stupid hippies who believe art and self-development are important.


I know, of course. I was being over-dramatic. I'm a level-headed guy, generally. don't pay attention to my bursts of emotion.
Ask them how much time they spend watching tv or on facebook tho! If you work 35 or 40 hours a week that leaves you 128 non work hours, 72 waking hours away from work! If you can't manage an hour or every other day on something you really want to do that's on you!
But this is going off topic at this point I guess

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Old 18-01-2017, 11:26 AM   #59
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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It's not so much feeling forced, at least in my situation, it's systems. Routine. I need these things I guess. I'm more motivated to be creative in my off time that way.
I don't think the idea is that people wouldn't work at all. If you want to maintain a regular full-time activity, you can do that very well. And I believe a lot of people are like you. It feels good to have a routine. At least if you feel like you've chosen that routine, or maybe just accept it. Like A.M. said, your work philosophy is pretty much contained in the BUI proposition.

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Old 18-01-2017, 11:28 AM   #60
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Originally Posted by jbvdb493 View Post
Ask them how much time they spend watching tv or on facebook tho! If you work 35 or 40 hours a week that leaves you 128 non work hours, 72 waking hours away from work! If you can't manage an hour or every other day on something you really want to do that's on you!
But this is going off topic at this point I guess
haha. fair enough. I do feel like this basic income thing comes with a certain ideal of mankind that can easily get shattered

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