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Old 15-01-2017, 07:27 PM   #21
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Originally Posted by relic View Post
@A.M. Google post-scarcity society Had a really bright student do a great research essay on the concept about a year ago. Still haven't watched the documentary he suggested yet, if I come across the title I'll come back with it...
Thanks A..will take a look at that.

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Old 15-01-2017, 07:37 PM   #22
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Oh, besides, I don't think there is such scarcity in terms of pretend money in the world for basic guaranteed income, but there is definitely scarcity in terms of all other, real necessities of life, food, water raw materials etc to guarantee what westerners consider a decent standard of living to everyone in the world. Ie pump,more money into a system that can't feed or keep everyone with said money alive and well and that money doesn't mean anything, just watch inflation sky rocket!
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Old 15-01-2017, 11:14 PM   #23
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

People are going to abuse the system just like every other system throughout history. I'm for this type of thing on some ways but you know that in a world of nearly 8 billion and climbing I don't think it's a sustainable thing to give money out and expect it to stay stable for very long. Oh and welcome to the NWO
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Old 15-01-2017, 11:27 PM   #24
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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. Oh and welcome to the NWO
four more days

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Old 16-01-2017, 01:22 PM   #25
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Just in time for the World Economic Forum Oxfam has updated its study:

• Since 2015, the richest 1% has owned more wealth than the rest of the planet.3
• Eight men now own the same amount of wealth as the poorest half of the world.4
• Over the next 20 years, 500 people will hand over $2.1 trillion to their heirs – a sum larger than the GDP of India, a country of 1.3 billion people.5
• The incomes of the poorest 10% of people increased by less than $3 a year between 1988 and 2011, while the incomes of the richest 1% increased 182 times as much.6
• A FTSE-100 CEO earns as much in a year as 10,000 people in working in garment factories in Bangladesh.7
• In the US, new research by economist Thomas Piketty shows that over the last 30 years the growth in the incomes of the bottom 50% has been zero, whereas incomes of the top 1% have grown 300%.8

In Vietnam, the country‟s richest man earns more in a day than the poorest person earns in 10 years.9

http://www.oxfam.de/system/files/spe...ent_report.pdf

I am wondering how it is that the disenfranchised majority keeps putting up with this. The more I think about it, I'm always coming back to Karl Marx and his working class aristocracy idea. In the US, for example, the GOP has diligently crafted the message of individual accountability and individual freedom. As long as enough people feel that they participate in the system to their advantage, they will not favor change. The dissatisfaction is effectively redirected to so called "moochers" that purportedly make a cushy life off of entitlements, something that is a perennial part of the "envy debate" in Germany as well. Rather than increasing the marginal tax rate and increasing the minimum wage, there are calls to defund welfare.

Would it not make more sense to favor only real investments? How about a progressive corporate tax that eliminates taxation for businesses with fewer than 100 employees and is capped at a marginal tax rate of 15% for the largest corporations. Tax exempt any individual income below $20k and increase the marginal tax rate to make this budget neutral, even if that means 90%. If we want the wealthy to create jobs, their net cash flow needs to be taxed rigorously, unless they invest it directly into enterprises that create jobs. How about a cap-and-trade type approach: in any given year you get a tax deduction proportional to the annual salary of the new jobs you or the enterprises you have invested in have created domestically in that tax year. Unless you personally incentivize job creation, I don't see it happening to the extent needed.

Also, here is the development of US income inequality:http://www.epi.org/files/2013/wage-s...ine-charts.pdf

There is no escaping that with US foreign trade deficit there is a reliance on the domestic market for economic growth. If the average consumer is strapped for cash, who is going to buy services and goods?

Last edited by liquid_air; 16-01-2017 at 02:01 PM..

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Old 16-01-2017, 07:09 PM   #26
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

You missed the amazing stat about company bosses who, by the second day of the year have earned the same as what their employees will earn all year.

Over here the Labour party leader suggested last week, in an off the cuff statement, that maybe it's time we put a cap on the top dog's earnings.
He suggested 20x the earnings of the lowest paid worker, which would put it at around 350k per year for someone employing people on the minimum wage.
The press made a big deal of it and basically ridiculed him and laughed it out of the door immediately.
Turns out that a majority of the public actually think it's a pretty good idea...strange that.


Man, inheritance tax is a motherfucker.
Such a tricky scenario, on the one hand I hate hereditary power and wealth, but for the normal hard-working guy it's a fucking piss-take.
If you've bust your balls and done well with your time why shouldn't your kids get it?
After all that's pretty much all that most people do this shit for.
In the UK you pay tax when you earn it, you pay tax when you buy stuff with it and then they want to take a bit of it off you when you die too?
Again, I think there needs to be a distinction between the well-off and the super rich, or the "have yachts" (as in, the haves, the have nots and the have yachts) as they've become known.

I dunno, it's a tough one.
Just you try and come and take my hard earned money off of me when I finally make some.

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Old 16-01-2017, 07:38 PM   #27
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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You missed the amazing stat about company bosses who, by the second day of the year have earned the same as what their employees will earn all year.

Over here the Labour party leader suggested last week, in an off the cuff statement, that maybe it's time we put a cap on the top dog's earnings.
He suggested 20x the earnings of the lowest paid worker, which would put it at around 350k per year for someone employing people on the minimum wage.
The press made a big deal of it and basically ridiculed him and laughed it out of the door immediately.
Turns out that a majority of the public actually think it's a pretty good idea...strange that.


Man, inheritance tax is a motherfucker.
Such a tricky scenario, on the one hand I hate hereditary power and wealth, but for the normal hard-working guy it's a fucking piss-take.
If you've bust your balls and done well with your time why shouldn't your kids get it?
After all that's pretty much all that most people do this shit for.
In the UK you pay tax when you earn it, you pay tax when you buy stuff with it and then they want to take a bit of it off you when you die too?
Again, I think there needs to be a distinction between the well-off and the super rich, or the "have yachts" (as in, the haves, the have nots and the have yachts) as they've become known.

I dunno, it's a tough one.
Just you try and come and take my hard earned money off of me when I finally make some.
Yeah, I agree with you on that..it's always struck me as kinda shitty to hit up people for a stake of what their loved ones left them when they died..kinda epitomizes everything low and impersonal that people usually associate with politicians and politics in general. I could perhaps state that a little better, but I guess you get my point.

Regarding the whole UBI debate, though..I do think it will happen at some stage..and maybe a lot sooner than we think right now..but I don't see the setup costs as being the major stumbling block, but rather "educating" the public to appreciate the benefits of such a system. We're talking about the average person needing to see it as a basic human right, rather than a hand-out to others they might think don't deserve it.

But with unemployment expected to continuing to grow globally, along with the current social welfare systems already under too much strain..the move to such a system might yet prove to be more of a necessity than an option.

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Old 16-01-2017, 11:22 PM   #28
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Apparently the top 2 wealthiest in Canada have as much money as the bottom 1/3rd of the population. Excellent. At some point, what do you even do with that kind of money?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/oxfa...alth-1.3937073
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Old 17-01-2017, 12:36 AM   #29
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Not sure about other countries, but I did get a brief overview of the US tax code in college, including estate taxes. I think the system is decently fair (as taxes go, there's some really dumb stuff in our tax code if you do some digging). Estates over $5 million are supposed to be taxed before being handed down to the next generation. If you try to skip a generation, an extra tax is imposed for every generation you attempt to skip (so a 97 year old doesn't leave his estate to a 7 month old great-great grandson and skip 3 generations of the tax). Realistically, with some decent planning before your demise, you could pass down up to about 18 million (per direct legal descendant) without being taxed, but it would be tied up. However, these people making that much in a year are going to be stuck, their estate is worth too much to escape taxation if it ever gets used again. That money may not be taxed now, but it will be when it is used. And statistically, it's used up by the grandchildren, as most estates don't survive beyond them.
And the common man probably doesn't have an estate worth $5 million (I can't think of one person on either side of my family who might), so it's not an issue for the average person, for now. If those values don't adjust with inflation, it could be an issue later on, and make no mistake, there are taxes that don't adjust with inflation that haven't been adjusted since the 1960s, if it's not tied to inflation, congress ain't gonna fix it. But it works OK for now, compared to some of the spiderwebs of law I've seen.

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Old 17-01-2017, 02:12 AM   #30
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Apparently the top 2 wealthiest in Canada have as much money as the bottom 1/3rd of the population.


These people are the fucking cyst-like parasite... their whole fucking lives are loopholes.

That wealth is supposed to be out there making humanity move forward.

Fucking crime.
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Old 17-01-2017, 10:30 AM   #31
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

I just wish some country would just try it. It's good to make predictions and talk stats, but I feel this over-reliance on science and need for clear-cut answers get tedious after a while. There's so much more than just maths to this question, and there is no exact science of human behavior.

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Old 17-01-2017, 06:51 PM   #32
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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I just wish some country would just try it. It's good to make predictions and talk stats, but I feel this over-reliance on science and need for clear-cut answers get tedious after a while. There's so much more than just maths to this question, and there is no exact science of human behavior.
Finland has given a trial the go ahead, although they have fallen way short of giving out enough money to really allow it to work. I think I heard the figure of 500 per month was agreed.

Having said that if anyone wants to offer me 500 quid a month extra income for doing nothing I will happily accept it, it would make a huge difference to my life.

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Old 17-01-2017, 08:41 PM   #33
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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..it would make a huge difference to my life.
..and that's exactly the point..to make such a difference in a person's life, that they actually understand in very real terms what it means to really live their lives..and not just go through life chasing an income in order to live; that there is more to our lives..more to us..than merely working to earn somebody else profit in return for the best part of our waking lives.

I guess it's a wake-up call of sorts..but one that can be misunderstood without the right education beforehand..and that, like I said before, is where the real challenge lies as I see it..getting the vast majority to understand this IS a good thing and not another handout to the poor in our world.

It has to happen one day..I really don't think they're going to have any other choice if they want to continue with "business as usual" and they already know this themselves.


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Old 17-01-2017, 09:19 PM   #34
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

I know in the original post you said "around the globe", A.M. but i can't help think that's going to end up being "everywhere but the USA." Because really, that's probably not going to go down here in the states, I'm betting. Just a hunch. I mean, weed's still not legal where I'm at even though you'd probably not go to jail for having a personal stash. You'd still get a fine and probably a fairly hefty one. Point being, The USA is so behind on so many policies compared to the rest of the world, it's ridiculous. The pharmaceutical companies are jacking up prices for meds here (Martin Shkreli aka Assholio) and El Trumpo is gunning for Obamacare. I just can't see them giving out what basically amounts to welfare but with even less accountability for the recipients.
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Old 17-01-2017, 09:32 PM   #35
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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I know in the original post you said "around the globe", A.M. but i can't help think that's going to end up being "everywhere but the USA." Because really, that's probably not going to go down here in the states, I'm betting. Just a hunch. I mean, weed's still not legal where I'm at even though you'd probably not go to jail for having a personal stash. You'd still get a fine and probably a fairly hefty one. Point being, The USA is so behind on so many policies compared to the rest of the world, it's ridiculous. The pharmaceutical companies are jacking up prices for meds here (Martin Shkreli aka Assholio) and El Trumpo is gunning for Obamacare. I just can't see them giving out what basically amounts to welfare but with even less accountability for the recipients.
Actually, Nixon tried it back in '68..and I think its time will come around again in the U.S, if it's seen to work in other countries around the world.

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Old 17-01-2017, 09:36 PM   #36
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Finland has given a trial the go ahead, although they have fallen way short of giving out enough money to really allow it to work. I think I heard the figure of 500 per month was agreed.

Having said that if anyone wants to offer me 500 quid a month extra income for doing nothing I will happily accept it, it would make a huge difference to my life.
I stopped counting how many times I said this, but "full time job" is just another way to spell suicide. Pretty much any job is fine if you don't have to do it 39hrs a week.

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Old 17-01-2017, 09:40 PM   #37
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Full time s 40 hours, and don't sound so entitled! Ffs everyone I know does it and still has time to live their lives!
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Old 17-01-2017, 10:08 PM   #38
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

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Full time s 40 hours, and don't sound so entitled! Ffs everyone I know does it and still has time to live their lives!

Really?

Do you think it wouldn't be a good thing for everyone on here?

I don't know how many times I've read on here folks saying they would love to spend more time producing their art, but have to hold down jobs in order to put bread on the table.

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Old 17-01-2017, 10:24 PM   #39
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Tbh I get depressed when I'm not working all day. It seems miserable until I have too much time on my hands. I think a common problem is, is everybody sees their job as, "for the man", and not enough people can or will give a shit about what they're doing. You get stuck in a rat race mentality, more money, look at them, greedy attitude. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of this BIEN thing, but I hardly find it to be the right answer. People need to change and stop blaming it on a leader. I think it will definitely make most people more lazy.

Make things happen because you want to, don't not do it because you think you're helping fat cats.

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Old 17-01-2017, 10:33 PM   #40
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Re: Universal Basic Income - Good or Bad idea?

Oh and I should say, I grew up very poor. I've hated jobs. I've had more clandestine jobs and made a lot of money and I can tell you, it's not where it's at. Money is garbage. If I can eat and stay busy while doing something that I can take some pride in, I'm happy. It's taken me awhile to figure this out, and who knows, maybe I'll change my mind again, as I do often.

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